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J
 
Joined in 2012
August 6, 2012, 06:31

Yeah it can be extremely frustrating when people don't listen to your perspective. What I've come to realize over the last couple years is that some people don't want to listen (or they want to stay a victim) no matter how great of a case you put forward. It's awesome you're considering staying here – freedom2b has helped me a lot, and it's a great platform to discuss things and find solutions πŸ™‚



RQC
 
Joined in 2012
August 6, 2012, 06:55

It is frustrating and it's why I wonder if I should do it, but I don't say anything, only their point is out there. You're much more diplomatic with dealing with her Jordan, you gotta teach me how to do that.



J
 
Joined in 2012
August 6, 2012, 07:41

Aw thanks RQC <3


I used to be really argumentative towards haters though, and I think that came from years of me being bullied at school – not being able to have a voice (a mute as such), and having strong opinions towards things that affect me. I haven't always written like the way I have been lately on YouTube before. I think the grace of God has allowed me to reword my opinions in a more positive light. Maybe it was when I was water baptised, I will never know.


I am also inspired by people like Ellen Degeneres, Justin Bieber, and the late Michael Jackson.


Ellen uses her talk show program as a platform to show that LOVE truly does conquer all. At the end of each episode she always makes the comment 'be kind to one another' too, and I think as a society we've lost that simple yet powerful message. I also admire her generosity and kindness towards others.


Then there's Michael Jackson who took an unbelievable amount of hate from the world, and turned it into something positive. He didn't hate anyone for what they called him or what lies and rumours they spread about him, and if there was someone on this planet who best represented Jesus in both today's society and in flesh, to me, that person would be him. Michael loved everyone, and it takes courage dealing with haters.


I look at Justin Bieber and how many people have hated on him for no reason at all, and how he has coped with it. Honestly I have so much respect for him, AND he's laughing all the way to the bank, so haters may hate him all they want, but he's still going to be successful at the end of the day. He's doing what he loves, he's very honest and true to himself, and he even went to a children's hospital in private after landing at Auckland airport and before his concert (not many people know about that!). To me, that is simply amazing, and there are many other great deeds that go unnoticed behind the scenes. His parents definitely brought him up well.


In summary, I think we can all be role models. As Lady Gaga says, we're all born superstars. There's also a passage from 1 John 4:4, and that is


Greater Is He That Is In You Than He That Is In The World


So to me, no matter how many haters I come across in the world, I'm comforted knowing that God loves me no matter what, and that He is the only one I need validation from. No amount of haters can tell me otherwise πŸ™‚ I've also learnt to:


β€œBe the change that you wish to see in the world.” – Mahatma Gandhi


And


[Proverbs 15:1] β€œA soft answer turneth away wrath; but a grievous word stirreth up anger”


I love that quote in particular, because I got an extremely hateful private message from someone on YouTube, telling me I'll rot in hell, faggot this, faggot that. I replied in a calm manner, saying that he was very well entitled to his own opinions (because in reality, everyone IS allowed an opinion), and what he said hurt me but I didn't actually comment on it. At the end I just said God bless and take care. He replied back apologizing. I almost fell off my chair in shock.


But ya I think we have the opportunity to show the world that we do care, that we can make a difference, and that love conquers all πŸ™‚



ShadowBoxer
Moderator
Joined in 2005
August 6, 2012, 10:35

This is an interesting question – and a frustrating one.


People dont like to change opinions and there are many reasons for that.


For example – some people just feel they cant publicly change an opinion once its stated (because they will have to admit they were wrong). In those cases, the more you try to persuade them – the more they will "stick to their guns" no matter how clear it is – even to them – that they are in the wrong.


NLP (Neuro Linguistic programming) (and Im NOT advocating that – merely using it as an example for this thread) claims that different people process information in different ways ( Visually, Auditorily etc) and that the key to contacting a person is to utilise metaphors and language that talk to the way they process information. Certainly (what ever ones thoughts are on NLP) different arguments work with different people. If you arent presenting the right argument – things often escalate – in part because there is no real communication going on. Im sure we have seen this – where there is a difference of opinion but some how the two sides dont seem to connect.

There are also studies that show that Conservatives and Liberals process information differently.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1012/10122301

(Guess what type of brain I have) In short – "People with liberal views tended to have increased grey matter in the anterior cingulated cortex, a region of the brain linked to decision-making, in particular when conflicting information is being presented" whereas "Conservatives, meanwhile, found increased grey matter in the amygdala, an area of the brain associated with processing emotion. This difference is consistent with studies which show that people who consider themselves to be conservative respond to threatening situations with more aggression than do liberals"

(There ARE other studies in this area as well BTW)

In short though – an appeal to facts – The fact that the sins of sodom DO NOT include Homosexuality – OR the fact that Arsenoites is used in ancient literature to describe something a man does with his wife – will be useful to a liberal thinker – but not to a conservative thinker. So often with the people preaching against Gays – are conservatives – and they need an emotional – not a list of facts to reach them. Even worse – if you do succeed – that can be perceived as a threat and all sorts of defence mechanisms kick in (which is why things often escalate).


Of course MANY anti gay people – suffer from Self hate and are repressing Gay feelings.

From the wikipedia section on Internalised Homophobia

Some studies have shown that people who are homophobic have repressed their own homosexual desires.[59] In 1996, a controlled study of 64 heterosexual men (half said they were homophobic by experience, with self-reported orientation) at the University of Georgia found that men who were found to be homophobic (as measured by the Index of Homophobia)[60] were considerably more likely to experience more erectile responses when exposed to homoerotic images than non-homophobic men.[61] Another study in 2012 arrived at similar results when researchers found that students who came from "the most rigid anti-gay homes" were most likely to reveal repressed homosexual attraction.[62] The researchers noted that this explained why some religious leaders who denounce homosexuality are later revealed to have secret homosexual relations.[62] The researchers noted that "these people are at war with themselves and are turning this internal conflict outward."

See http://web.archive.org/web/20040202035152/www.apa.org/releases/homophob.html

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf and

http://dbhs.edlioschool.com/ourpages/auto/2011/5/8/52562172/4-27%20Articles.pdf


So in fact for many Anti Gays – the studies suggest a high percentage are actually Gay men – repressed and acting out rage externally because they are afraid of their own feelings.

Mind – the FACT that they are anti gay – because they are Gay doesnt seem to sit well with them – so I'm not advocating it as a technique to use !


So what that boils down to is – that the studies and my experience suggest that the best way to reach these people is

1) Lay out your point.

2) Dont get into back and forth arguments – especially in a public forum as that can actually hold people in their views ( because they dont want to be seen to change their minds, because facts wont reach them – and because sometime they have a whole lot of internal stuff going on and whilst they are attacking you – its themselves they are really fightint)

3) If you can – add emotional arguments – they are more likely to reach conservative minds ( Im really bad at this myself)

4) also take lots of time and small steps in any discussion you do want to hold. Give people time to notice their feelings (and hopefully how their feelings may have changed when you point something out. That can take more time to occur and if people are so caught up in defending or attacking – they sometimes dont notice till well afterwards they have changed their feelings / opinions. The other advantage in taking lots of time – is that you dont get caught up in the emotion. (Its a very human response when someone gets mad / upset – that you do as well. Taking lots of time can help prevent escalation – sometimes).


Dont know if all that is helpful or not – hope it is…



RQC
 
Joined in 2012
August 6, 2012, 13:55

It helps me BIG time ShadowBoxer. I'll keep a mental note of your points.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 6, 2012, 20:10

Hi RQC

I think it's also helpful to imagine you are the person receiving your message and how you would feel if you were on the receiving end. And if you can also do this with some understanding of where the other person comes from, this is particularly useful. And don't forget that gay people can be anti Christian and hateful as well. I'm not suggesting you are like that – not at all – but it's worth remembering that those of us in the LGBTI community are not the only ones to experience hatred. Sadly because of the hatred expressed by a part of the church, some people in our own community hate Christians so much that it does our community harm and stops the 2 groups coming together in open, healthy dialogue. So there will be Christians who have encountered this hatred and feel hurt and defensive because of it. And there will be those on both sides who are insecure, defending their position as if their lives depend on it. Somehow their need to be right ties in with their salvation or right to existence. And both perspectives are sad because I really don't think God cares about whether we are right or not but how we care for each other.

And I think one of the most important things is that each side needs to know how to put their own views aside and see the person in front of them with love and open mindedness. And this goes for gay people as much as Christians. If one or both doesn't know how to do this, then it's better not to enter into dialogue. Debating is different to dialogue by the way. Dialogue is knowing how to listen to the other person and show understanding of their view but it doesn't mean you have to agree. I think it also means being able to mutually agree on some common goals, such as learning more about each other, seeing the good in the other and the commonalities rather than differences. Debating is more about an intellectual exchange and this isn't for everyone either. Being intellectual requires open mindedness and not everyone has that ability or the intelligence required to debate well. Debating or trying to have dialogue with someone who is closed minded is a waste of time and I don't believe it matters what their learning style is, whether visual, auditory, kinesthetic, or where their beliefs sit, whether conservative or liberal. If they are closed minded, it doesn't matter what style of arguments are put forth. They won't see, hear or understand because the intent for open mindedness, learning and reconciliation isn't there from the outset. The relationship has to be more important than the ideas that we so love to attach ourselves to or the notion of being right. And both parties have to share the same like mindedness and intent otherwise it won't work. There's no point if it isn't mutual.

Fully dealing with hurt is also important before being able to engage in dialogue. If the hurt hasn't been processed, then that can get in the way and lead to emotional exchanges that are unhelpful to both sides.

Hopefully that gives you more food for thought.

Blessings,

Ann Maree



J
 
Joined in 2012
August 7, 2012, 06:39

After providing that Redeemer dude with many resources, he still wanted to pick a fight, so I left a final message (as he focuses so much on what the bible says literally) saying you don't stop and question the bridge's foundations when you drive over it, you just go. Likewise with the bible, it's obvious that it isn't crystal clear, but we do know the underlying foundation or message is to LOVE one another, not hate. I just had to tell him that we will have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.


There is no hope in telling this guy otherwise, despite the resources I've given him. This one is a losing battle, and I would ignore this guy (in fact I have blocked him on YouTube). It is REALLY sad, but some people just do not want to be open to the possibility of being wrong. They just want a fight.



RQC
 
Joined in 2012
August 7, 2012, 06:55

It does. I know a lot of the anti-Christian sentiment in the gay community is just a response to the actions of ant-gay Christians who aren't just happy with having an opinion, but they try to legislate there opinion with "going after gays" on everything from gay marriage to same-sex employee benefits to even fighting anti-bullying measures in schools. I can't but help having a rightious anger when so many who claim Christ as Saviour are going around doing so much damage in the name of the Saviour, it brings reproach to His name and makes others to stumble. I've decided to be more understanding/loving/see from their perspective in my personal exchanges with other, but my blog is going to take a stronger stance starting today.



RQC
 
Joined in 2012
August 7, 2012, 06:59

The above post was for Ann Maree.

I KNEW that would happen Jordan, I'm dropping out of that conversation too.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 7, 2012, 18:54

Hi RQC

You said:


I know a lot of the anti-Christian sentiment in the gay community is just a response to the actions of ant-gay Christians who aren't just happy with having an opinion, but they try to legislate there opinion with "going after gays" on everything from gay marriage to same-sex employee benefits to even fighting anti-bullying measures in schools. I can't but help having a rightious anger when so many who claim Christ as Saviour are going around doing so much damage in the name of the Saviour, it brings reproach to His name and makes others to stumble. I've decided to be more understanding/loving/see from their perspective in my personal exchanges with other, but my blog is going to take a stronger stance starting today.


Yes I understand about the righteous anger and see nothing wrong with having that. It's a part of being passionate and standing up against injustice. Others may not always understand it though. So as long as you are prepared for that and the fact that Christians might justify their own anger in response to yours as righteous. It's true that a soft answer can turn away wrath.. however sometimes there is a place for righteous anger although it can be upsetting nevertheless.

Blessings,

Ann Maree


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