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Discipleship

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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 10, 2010, 18:51

I know many of you have had horrible experiences with church and quite rightly have no desire to set foot in one again.


I also sense that there is a life giving, deep spirituality amongst the GLBT community, or at very least a hunger to discover the “life to the full” that Jesus talks about.


I could be very wrong about this next point, but I also get the feeling that if you’re from the GLBT community and want to learn more about faith and discipleship, your only options are to either hide who you are and go to a church with the traditional view of homosexuality, or go to an affirming church that may make sexuality the point of every discussion.


Here’s a few questions that I’m keen to hear your answers on:


1. Is there much opportunity for you in the traditional church to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you can be honest about who you are?


2. Is there much opportunity for you in the GLBT community to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you don’t have to talk about your sexuality all the time, but can focus on being a child of God and what it means to follow Jesus?


3. What sort of things would you really like, but haven’t been able to find, that would help you in your walk of faith?


4. How could you be best equipped to reach your friends and family in the GLBT community who have yet to hear the gospel?


Looking forward to hearing your response!


mrg



iplantolive
 
Joined in 2008
April 10, 2010, 23:53

From my Pentecostal experience, there was never any room for negotiation with the church or their pastors about LGBT discipleship because it is still considered an abomination, and therefore, to be gay is to be in sin and outside of Gods fellowship unless you changed your ways, which we know leads to unhealthy outcomes.


From my Anglican experience, it depended on the local church and minister in charge. If they were enlightened about LGBT issues, then there was some support and discipleship from the various clergy and/or senior lay persons. This was very much on the condition that your sexual orientation was not actively promoted within the congregation. The whole support structure seemed to be very heterosexual biased with the traditional values surrounding family and marriage dominating the ministry program.


In terms of opportunities for discipleship or mentoring in the LGBT community, I think freedom2b[e] definately provides that, once you have addressed the various issues that need to be resolved in your life surrounding faith and/or sexuality. You are right in saying that many of us have had quite negative experiences with traditional churches, so to find a non-judgemental, non-Christian organisation such as f2b is refreshing, and allows people to build connections and dialogue with like-minded people without fear of being labelled or stereotyped, which generally happens in many churches where there is little or no understanding of sexual orientation.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
April 11, 2010, 19:37

Hi mrg


My experiences with trying to engage with pentecostal churches as openly gay were met with rejection. As per your perceptions, I was advised to either come along and not tell anyone I was gay because we “love the sinner, hate the sin” or not attend. When I attempted to offer alternative readings of scripture to support my belief that homosexuality is not a sin, the pastor was not able to hear it. I felt quite strongly about my need to be living openly and not excluded from normal conversations about home life etc and also wanted to be in the worship ministry. I couldn’t go to a church and not use my gifts. So with a broken heart, (there’d been a lot of rejection on other issues before that, and this was the last straw), I gave up. I decided I’d worked too hard on my self esteem to expose myself to further rejection or expectations that I be half a citizen.


I did attend a gay affirming church for a while. It was a combination of factors that made this a short-term option, i.e. really bad music, old-fashioned style of service and distance to the church. They were very kind, good people however although the LGBT stuff was perhaps over-emphasised. (Understandable in some ways to counteract the rejection in other churches).


In regards to your questions, I’m wondering how you define discipleship/mentoring. I’m guessing you mean fellowship or support from church members.


So the short answers for the moment are:


1. No not many opportunities to have discipleship in churches and be honest about being gay. That said, I am aware that Rob Buckingham’s churches in Melbourne are now accepting which is great….. I just can’t bring myself to go. It’s like the damage has been too much and it’s too late for me now.


2. Not many opportunities In the LGBT community either. A lot of gay friends walk away if christianity is even mentioned in passing.. My spirituality has evolved to include other philosophies. This site has connected me to some like-minded others however I don’t identify myself as Christian anymore. I believe in God as much as ever but think the concept of Jesus is way bigger than what the Christian model offers. This presents another challenge in my finding more interfaith perspectives.


3. I would LOVE to find mature and loving interfaith people as mentors. I imagine us sharing ideas in a supportive way… Having collective prayer/meditation and worship would be a further bonus. Spiritual workshops and retreats would be invaluable… I want to continue studying different faiths and find the strengths and commonalities between them while making the most of personal development opportunities. I get excited about the notion of building unity between faiths and would love to have opportunities to be involved in that.


4. I no longer believe in the need to evangelise or bring anyone under the restriction of one religion. I love the Dalai Lama’s response to an enthusiastic young man who expressed his desire to become a buddhist. The D.L said: “Oh dont do that. Just be kind to others.” I love that because he makes the point that all religions are limited and there are broader universal principles that are beyond these and bring us closer to God. I believe that if I’m happy and reaching my full potential as a loving person that this brings love into others’ lives while permitting them to seek similar opportunities.


Thanks for your enquiry into our experiences and needs in this area. It will be interesing to hear the input from others at f2b too..


Blessings,


Ann Maree



forestgrey
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2008
April 11, 2010, 20:24

Can I add to the “welcomes” on your other thread. Some immediate, off-the-top-of-the-head answers to your questions:


1. Is there much opportunity for you in the traditional church to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you can be honest about who you are?


Not that I’ve found. I have a long Baptist background, followed by 20+ years in an A.O.G. church, but now back in a fairly conservative Baptist Church about 4 years. In both my current church & my former church it has been a case of I’ve had no reason to tell and have never been asked. I don’t see any point in walking in waving a rainbow flag. It’s not my style.


But as soon as I am asked, or find a relevant context to say, I am ready to enlighten them. And feel well-equipped to handle any flack. (And quite a bit of that ‘readiness’ is thanks to Freedom2b.) We have established that remaining gracious (rather than attacking back) is the most effective strategy. And knowing that probably the biggest problem is their unknowing ignorance, helps handle the issue. (I don’t mean that perjoratively.)


mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.


The churches available to me which I know are accepting of gay people are either:

>>> (a) more liberal (perhaps, better – less evangelical) in their theology than I feel comfortable with; or

>>> (b) too liturgical for this non-conformist (no matter how hard I try to have communication between God and me through liturgy, it doesn’t work!!); or

>>> (c) too gay – i.e., the “we are gay” or the “we welcome gays” part of their message seems to take precedent over all else.


So, really, I have never been properly put to the test in respect to your question. I can, however, “experience discipleship/mentoring”. It’s just the ‘be honest’ bit has never been tested. Probably strange, but true.


Have never thought about it until now, but maybe they (current & former church) shy away from being honest about their atittude &/or of expecting gays to be honest??? Interesting thought? Must explore that more.


2. Is there much opportunity for you in the GLBT community to experience discipleship/mentoring in which you don’t have to talk about your sexuality all the time, but can focus on being a child of God and what it means to follow Jesus?


Again, not that I’ve found. There are some explicit Christian gay groups around (mostly associated within a denomination – either formally recognized or informally tolerated, even accepted). But, again, – in Sydney at least – not of the evangelical/pentecostal bent where I feel comfortable. Whilst such a support group would be good, it should only operate as an adjunct to local church involvement – not become my quasi-church.


Freedom2b’s charter doesn’t really extend into running that sort of group.


3. What sort of things would you really like, but haven’t been able to find, that would help you in your walk of faith?


Yair, a periodic bible study fellowship group of like-minded bods would help. BUT, being able to feel fully-accepted and comfortable and able to participate within a local church congreation is the ideal.


4. How could you be best equipped to reach your friends and family in the GLBT community who have yet to hear the gospel? Sections of the church have so damaged the church’s message and name through their homophobic rantings over the years (and continue to), that it’s really hard to break through. We need to divorce the gospel message and the reality of faith from organized Christianity. It’s really how we live our lives and demonstrate the outcome of our faith that matters and can break through. Despite mass evangelism, radio/TV programmes, flyers, books, etc., etc., the research shows that over 80% of people come to faith through the witness of a family member or friend who took an interest, initiated a range of conversations, and started bringing the person to church meetings. That’s how I do it with my non-Christian gay friends. But, it’s hard!


mrg, as Anthony and others have often said, we are all on a journey. I am pleased that you are with us. Even if your journey is a bit different, I think we are now on adjoining lanes of life’s highway.


Bless ya!



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 11, 2010, 23:06

Everyone here has given great responses…….because of time I’m going to be really brief…..unusual for me….hehe.


For those who still have a faith or want to come back into it…..I think what all of us want (speaking on behalf of F2B members I think)……….we want to be a part of a church community



  1. Where our sexual orientation is not made an issue

  2. Where we never have to stop and think “I can’t say that about myself”

  3. Where we are not segregated off to a separate group

  4. Where our faith and the life we live is what determines whether our gifts are used in the church community or not…..not our orientation

  5. Where we are not treated as special but normal


Regarding mentoring and discipleship…….I think in some ways this happens naturally in Freedom 2 b[e].


Who we are, what we do and the way we do it……….are models for individuals who join the F2B community either online or a chapter meetings.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 10:06

Hi avb


I agree with the content of your numbered points… Basically, LGBT people who want to go to church need to be regarded as an integral part of their faith community without distinction on the basis of sexuality. I need to stress however that some of us here, including myself, still have strong faiths, and want to be part of a community, just not a christian church. Others again may be happy with their faith and going it alone. What you’ve said no doubt applies to those who want to maintain a pentecostal, charasmatic and/or evangelical model, and if so, I hope they find what they need. I just want to make the point that there are many ways to express faith besides this..


Regarding mentoring and discipleship, I would welcome a discussion that explores what these actually are. I’m still unclear.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
April 12, 2010, 11:40

yes you have made a valid point here Ann Maree and something we respect here at freedom 2 b[e].


are you asking me……others or MRG or clarification on discipleship/mentoring.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 13:17

Thanks avb. Good to clarify what I thought you perhaps meant. And yes, I’m asking you, mrg and anyone who wants to comment about their ideas on discipleship and mentoring. 🙂



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
April 12, 2010, 22:12

Thanks for the replies so far everybody. It seems that what most GLBT folk want is the same as what most straight people want – still don’t see why we have such a big gulf between communities. Anyway, I digress…


About discipleship and mentoring, I was thinking along the lines of somebody to walk the journey with you who you can bounce ideas off, pray with, who can lead you into a deeper expression and experience of faith, equip you, help you discover your gifts and how to use them in ministry, who you can argue with, express doubts too, confess safely to, and so on.


While some people seem to be able to do this on their own, I think most of us need others along for the journey. And real faith in Jesus is a community faith – not a solo flight. We worship and serve together. Of course, faith in community is messy (as you well know) but I still hold on to the hope that we can make it work with God’s help.


Does that make any sense?


mrg



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
April 12, 2010, 22:52

Hi mrg


Yes, it seems we’re all human afterall with the same human needs as our hetero counterparts! 🙂


I like your definition of discipleship and mentoring. It sounds nice.


As for the community aspect of faith, yes I need community. But what about people like John the Baptist and those who wandered the desert without the types of community you are perhaps referring to? Was their faith less strong because they didn’t have pastors around?


Just some thoughts…


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