Homosexuality is Unnatural?

Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 12:16

Jesus nailed the whole levitical code and the ordinances to the cross…..You are still following what Jesus put an end to, its all through the Book of Hebrews. You are following the letter of the law and you will be judged by it because in the least of those you dont follow you will be guilty of all. Now that worries me.

Also Jesus said this “Mat 518 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

And Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law so the Law is finished from the old code……..A new command I give yoU Jesus said, and he states the loving God above all and love each other as we love ourselves because on that hang all the law and the prophets and he explains the rest of the 10 only………dont say beastiality, because that is abuse of animals, paeophilia is abuse of children and incest is abuse of the family. That is covered in the law being loving to your neighbour meaning not abusive or stealing whether it be human or animal. And is usually Lust driven not out of love. Hebrews states that the law is gone and done with. Do I need to add that scripture again??????? Jesus said it is finished!!!!!!!! Do I need to add hebrews again I say??????? The scripture above says it straight from Jesus mouth, that until the law is fulfilled not one part will be jotted out, Jesus fulfilled it that is why scripture states it is finished. the old codes are done away with, should i write the hebrew scripture again????or any others?????? i have repeated myself and others have repeated themselves over and over again……….what are you looking for Bruce that you cant see???????? why bother coming back on here if you refuse to see?????? If you cant even take Jesus word for it then I am sorry their is nothing we can do for you to help you see.

Joh 117 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Either Jesus spoke the truth or he did not!!!!!!! He Did. Either Jesus was God on earth or he was not!!!!!! He was. Its all I have to say, I wont be riled up anymore. We have been given the commission to spread the Gospel of peace, not criticism and judgement. We do Not Deny Jesus as the way to the Father and this in itself is a much weightier matter than anything you could present here. A sin can be forgiven, but denying Christ can not. I am accepted forever by God as I am because I have Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and I follow his commands he left us and the fact to be moral and upright according to HIS defination of that. AS do most of us on here. You could now throw the other batter verses at us but to no avail. We are saved and not abusers of mankind. Its not by abuse but by love, its not by idol worship its by love and monogamy. Its between 2 consenting adults. Not force or Lust.

Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 12:57

How does what you just said fit in with Matt 5:17? And don’t say it’s just the 10 commandments because Jesus goes on to talk about the 10 commandments as well as other laws.

There’s a difference between fulfilling and abolishing.

Joined in 2005
March 12, 2007, 13:04


Your posts remind me of a letter that went around the internet a while back. While a bit of a myth… the question at the base of it is relevant here

Its a little irreverent – for which I apologise – but i think it makes the point.

I then refer to one of the command Jesus DID give us….

Matthew 7.1-5

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

I then ask you a question

In the light of current medical knowlege.. for example

Paticularly this bit “Incongruence between chromosomal and phenotypic sex”

What does this mean. We have known for some time that genitals are not always a reliable guide to a persons gender. Now we know that chromosomes are not either.

What this means is that people need to seek within themselves to understand these matters and that by Judging them on surface appearances we would be Judging them based on something that is known to be unreliable and false….

I leave that judgement to God – and follow the commands of Jesus – including “love one another”

Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 13:18

I really dont think you grasp it Bruce……..The law is done with, the old code is done with the ten stand. Jesus fulfilled it and hebrews and other passages speak of it. I will always quote these two scriptures to u everytime you post on here because i find it extremely baffling which part of these scriptures u dont understand.


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

he has made the first obselete, and obselete is obselete.

Also Jesus said this “Mat 518 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”

so was all fulfilled or was it not Bruce??????? can u see that written here???????? Jesus fulfilled the law completely and the prophets. what part of that in light of the above scripture can you not understand to put two and two together……..I dont mean to sound rude but its baffling me.

Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 19:01

G’day Bruce.

You’re causing quite a stir in here aren’t you. 🙂 Nothing wrong with a good debate. . . . so long as both sides are willing to entertain the others views.

To give you credence, I’m impressed by your faith. But may I suggest that faith also does not equate to stubborness. I have no right to say that what you believe is wrong. I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on then (especially if I’ve shot myself in the foot as you have previously noted ;)) Judge not lest you be judged and all that. But it seems to me that you are an intelligent man. Based on that, let me propose a theory to you to think about.

Is it not possible that God, being onmniscient, all powerful and the master of design, could make each person an individual with an inbuilt way of connecting with him that is unique to them? We all know that God created us ‘in his image’, but have you ever counted the facets of God? Is it possible? If it is true that God created man to ‘have communion with him’ (to be in relationship with man) would it not make sense for him to create each one slightly different in the way in which he related to God in order to satisfy many different facets of his personality instead of just one? Can not each of these ways of relating to God be ‘in his image’? (Stay with me on this one – I can almost hear you smirking from Brisbane ;)) IF this is possible, is it not also possible that the ‘one true’ theory that you are proposing is limiting God? Just a thought. Don’t dismiss it straight away.

Also bruce, I understand that it must be almost satisfying to see people getting angry and defensive in the light of your questioning. If it were me, I’d assume that I was hitting a soft spot – an area that they obviously haven’t though through. That’s a fairly natural way to think. I’m not putting words in your mouth by the way, just what I’d be thinking. I suppose it becomes frustrating when you come head to head with people who are unable to understand your point of view. I suppose it’s a bit like Isaiah felt when, as quoted by Jesus, the people were “ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people’s heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.’

And of course we both see that scripture from opposing sides.

Could we be wrong? Of course! Could you be wrong? Only if you’re a human being. But this is all I know. Before I came to peace with my sexuality before God, my life was one of unrest, hatred, perversion and depression. When (i believe) God revealed the truth of these scriptures to me and I was free to have a relationship with him AND my partner, my life has been one of joy, peace, love, selflessness and hope. I love God. I don’t understand everything about him (otherwise I would be a God myself) and I don’t claim to. But I know that he loves me and he directs my steps every single day because I ask him to. And I’ve seen him work in me and through me over and over. If I’m deluded, then I think I’m quite happy to remain that way because, as Jesus said, “There is no fear in love.”

There are three possibilities here.

1/ WE are wrong and, even though we’ve seen the work of the spirit in our lives and tried with all our heart, mind and strength to live for God, on judgement day God will say, “Sorry – off to hell with you.”

2/ YOU are wrong and, even though you’ve seen the work of the spirit in your life and tried with all your heart, mind and strength to live for God, on judgement day God will say, “Sorry – off to hell with you.”

3/ God is God and is capable of making his own decisions apart from us and, just maybe, has the power to judge each person based on their heart for him and not the skill of reciting the bible verbatim. Maybe it’s his decision to make, not ours.

Why don’t we agree to disagree in the knowlege that God is big enough to deal with us individualy? Besides, God never said that we had to PROVE him to people, he instructed us to have faith and said that he “desires mercy not sacrifice.”

God bless you as you do what you believe God has instructed you to do. May people hear the truth of God in what you say and see past your human preconceptions. (I’m not trying to be condesending. I pray that for myself as well. 10 times over!)

Just to finish – a rebuttal to your comments on God changing. You said,

Sorry dash, but you just shot yourself in the foot. Yes God’s nature is unchanging, and it does APPEAR that God changes his mind. However, these changes are only to account for us, not himself. As you said, God’s nature is unchanging. Genesis describes a lot of God’s nature and things that he detests. God saying homosexuality is an abomination or detestable is saying something about the nature of God, that at that point in time he hates it. Saying it’s not is like saying God will hate something one day but love it the next. God doesn’t change like that. It’s not like God saying “do not eat meat” or any of the other “changes” he made to account for us.

I would like to know how it is that you have come to know the mind of God so completely. I would never dare to make such a fervent claim without evidence for the fear of an oncoming lightning bolt! Yes, I’m being facetious, but I think you should be careful about making sweeping claims about what God was thinking at any given moment unless you are yourself, God. In which case I sincerely apologise for being sarcastic. 😉

God bless ya buddy.


Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 20:05

Thanks Dash, I have learnt a lot from this reply…….yes soft spots are being touched and I am learning that God IS big enough to defend himself and his word D

The only thing I have full confidence in is that I will only make it to heaven based on the fact that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. If everything burns in the testing fire so be it. But that will not I am fully in trust of that.

Bruce, I have responded to you out of my own weakness to have to prove myself (a story in that) but realise that I dont need to. I completely agree to disagree and have stated this before wink If anything it has been very helpful that you have questioned as much as you have because it has enforced my stand in the Jesus I love and serve and how he loves me where I am at. So for that I thankyou. D Bless you mate!!!

Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 22:30

Madgee and Dash,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I too am learning about myself a little bit more… actually it is thanks to Bruce because he made me stop and think a little more and enabled me to turn to God and ask him questions. All I know is that I know “this much” and in a little while I will know a little bit more… God is continually revealing his truths and his wisdom. The one thing I do know and it has been proven to me over and over again that the old law has been fullfilled by Christ and that we can stop loathing ourselves because the regular Christian churches have a moral stand to support and like I used to be, people will gradually become enlgithened about our situation.

People ask me what is it like to be Deaf… I could only say “you’d have to be Deaf to understand” the same applies here… you have to be Gay to understand. I began to think about the scripture where Paul says Unto the Jew I became a Jew so that I may gain them under the Law… so technically us being Gay would understanding other Gays who have been rejected by the church… can start to have hope because we know and have walked in their shoes. We have this unshakeable conviction via Holy Spirit that enables us to communicate to others like ourselves and give them something to hope for… alot of them are carrying horrific wounds from the many who have failed to direct God’s love into their lives.


Good night and pleasant dreams…


Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
March 12, 2007, 23:50

Thanks guys for the mature way you have handled this. Our site is essentially for gay and lesbian people from Pentecostal/charismatic backgrounds. We are here to help them on their journey to reconciliation of their faith and sexuality. As far as I know, Bruce doesn’t fit that category.

I’ve been on other forums……like one that Bruce posts on as well. I stopped visiting that site after a while because it wasn’t really productive…..actually a waste of time. People were going around and around with the same arguments. I actually revisited recently after 6 months absence and found the same thing going on. No one had really moved positions…..although maybe one because my approach was not a hostile one… it was probably more about who I was than what I said.

I know that you have learnt from your engagement with Bruce……it’s good to have our position and beliefs challenged. I learnt a lot whilst on other forums such as signposts and guy Sebastian’s from having to constantly articulate what I knew to be true for me and my understanding from science, the bible and other study. It was personally helpful.

One thing I did learn as well is that there are people in the world like Bruce……who love to get caught in endless arguments. It almost reminds me of encounters with JW’s I used to have.

If I believed in demon possession…..I’d say it was an argumentative religious spirit………these days with my understanding of human behaviour I think I’d put it down to some deep seated psychological issue that probably Bruce isn’t even aware of. ……and I’m not qualified to diagnose.

I’m sure that for some people they will only ever change their understanding of same sex orientation when they turn around to the people next to them in heaven to say……”Isn’t this amazing” only to find that on one side is a gay man and the other side is a lesbian. As there will be no repentance in heaven it will be too late to say sorry for all the hurt they have caused……..and we won’t be worried either…..because we have know for ages God loves us just as we are.

love you guys…and proud of you all

Joined in 2005
March 13, 2007, 00:57

im just wondering what freedom2b’s policy or thoughts are on having someone like Bruce enter the group? Do we engage them, or do we close down conversation. Or will they be asked to leave the group???? Do we welcome them with open arms, so to make them aware of our confidence in God and God’s word. Should we engage in argument. I personally believe it is fruitless to argue. I believe the greatest change occurs through personal relationship and understanding. Just asking….

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
March 13, 2007, 10:03

yes i’m with you Frogger. I’m happy to discuss with anyone who is genuinley interested and wants open discussion. It appears that Bruces mind is made up. He has demonstrated that on other boards as well. The thing is that we know who we are and our relationship with God.

i’ve chosen to no longer engage in the discussion with him… i’ve said before I have a lot to do and can only devote my time for fruitful tasks. Bruce you may have noticed is quite skilled in engaging people in an arguement/discussion……..its being aware of that an making the choice about being invloved in it that is our personal responsibility.

Page:   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
WP Forum Server by ForumPress | LucidCrew
Version: 99.9; Page loaded in: 0.093 seconds.