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just a couple of questions (is it really all a lie?)

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Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 27, 2011, 20:10

Hi Brunski


I agree with Mother Hen. God is love and the greatest message of the bible is love shown through Jesus. He extended his love to all kinds of people including the most disenfranchised and marginalised people in society. Even if homosexuality is a sin, the bible shows us that God reaches out to ‘sinners’ and doesn’t shun them.


The other thing to consider is that we are more than our orientations or ‘sins’ and God of course knows that. He looks at our hearts and overflows with love for us.


As I keep reading my posts and some of the comments people have made, I am realising more and more that, its not God with the problem, but me! Let me clarify a few things,


I know that God loves me, he sent his one and only beloved son to die in my place. His love extends too all people regardless of race, culture, age … or sexuality! God loves me because I have accepted Christ as into my life and because He is a God of love. Through His son we are made righteous in his sight and he forgives us of our sins when we confess them. I guess, its not God’s love that I have issues with, its my own love towards myself! My own self-acceptance. Basically, I don’t want to be gay (I know that there is nothing I can do about it) but it doesn’t stop me from not wanting to be gay. It doesn’t stop me from hating myself for being gay, doesn’t stop me from feeling my sexuality is wrong, evil, sinful … It doesn’t stop me from wishing that I could change or even thinking that maybe I just haven’t tried hard enough to change. And nor does it stop me from feeling guilty after each intimate moment I spend with my “partner” or when I glace over at some attractive guy on the train … and think to myself, “damn he is hot!” or something along those lines.


Last night I attend a Bible study and we spoke about loving one another, accepting one another, serving one another, strengthening one another …. I don’t have a problem accepting or loving others, serving them or strengthening them, but I do have a problem accepting and loving myself.

And it is terribly unfair on my unofficial partner, I long for the day that I can truly accept myself as a gay man, love myself as a child of god regardless of my sexuality and be able to love my partner without guilt. I long for the day when my unofficial partner becomes my official partner and I find the courage to tell my family, friends and Church that I am gay. But sadly that day, seems far, far away :((


I have been so preconditioned to believe that homosexuality is wrong, that gays a “bad people” sick, perverted and an abomination before God, that all these preconditioned beliefs remained in the back of my mind and each time I open myself up to intimacy with another man or simply open up as a gay man, spending time with other gay men and/or women, those beliefs raise their ugly heads and like unwanted toxic gas, they come up out of nowhere, unseen and spread quickly through every ounce of my heart, polluting my mind, body and soul and then comes the guilt, the shame, the bitterness, the hatred and confusion. And the more I focus on those feeling, the more likely I am to have yet another seizure as the stress builds up. And the more I slip into depression and the closer I come to think to myself, what the point? Even if God does love me and homosexuality is not a sin, what does it matter if I cant even accept myself and love myself as a gay man?


And if God does hate fags as Fred Phelps would say, if homosexuality is wrong, sinful, evil …. then again, what’s the point? I’m only going to end up burning in hell anyway. Maybe when I reach “the pearly gates” there will be Jesus in all His glory and the very first words he will say to is, “‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoer!” you revolting homosexual pervert, I spew you out of my mouth. Go back to your father the devil!



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
August 27, 2011, 21:49

is there a glitch in the system that is making the quote and the reply run into each other. its hard to know which is which here



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 28, 2011, 08:32

Hi avb


Thanks for highlighting that. It was no glitch and is all fixed now. Raul and Brunski just forgot to put the /quote in square brackets at the end of the actual quotes.


So for anyone who is unsure, you put quote in square brackets before the beginning of a quote and then /quote in square brackets after it. That way you only have the quote in a lighter coloured text and the rest of the post in standard black. This differentiates the quote and makes it all easier to read.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 28, 2011, 08:46

Hi Brunski


You said:


I know that God loves me, he sent his one and only beloved son to die in my place. His love extends too all people regardless of race, culture, age … or sexuality! God loves me because I have accepted Christ as into my life and because He is a God of love. Through His son we are made righteous in his sight and he forgives us of our sins when we confess them. I guess, its not God’s love that I have issues with, its my own love towards myself! My own self-acceptance. Basically, I don’t want to be gay (I know that there is nothing I can do about it) but it doesn’t stop me from not wanting to be gay. It doesn’t stop me from hating myself for being gay, doesn’t stop me from feeling my sexuality is wrong, evil, sinful … It doesn’t stop me from wishing that I could change or even thinking that maybe I just haven’t tried hard enough to change. And nor does it stop me from feeling guilty after each intimate moment I spend with my “partner” or when I glace over at some attractive guy on the train … and think to myself, “damn he is hot!” or something along those lines.


I think you’re on to something there. It’s your own inability to accept yourself as God does. Hating yourself and not wanting to be gay is something that many of us have encountered on our journeys toward reconciling sexuality and faith. As long as you hate yourself like this, it’s easy to see God through this lens and believe that he too hates you. The good news however is that you can work on the self acceptance and as that improves, it will help you see things as they are. You can do this in tandem while looking for truth in scripture and one day it will become clear. One day you will have peace and acceptance if not certainty that homosexuality is not wrong.


You said:


And if God does hate fags as Fred Phelps would say, if homosexuality is wrong, sinful, evil …. then again, what’s the point? I’m only going to end up burning in hell anyway. Maybe when I reach “the pearly gates” there will be Jesus in all His glory and the very first words he will say to is, “‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoer!” you revolting homosexual pervert, I spew you out of my mouth. Go back to your father the devil!


This is an example of how a lack of self acceptance can turn your mind away from the truth that God loves you (which you stated above). You’ve also mixed scriptures up out of context. It’s completely unbiblical to think that God hates ‘fags’ or anyone. And ask yourself: Would you want to believe in a God who spoke so derogatively toward us and was filled with hatred? I certainly wouldn’t believe in a God like that. My God has to be better than me otherwise what am I aiming for? I mean, if I as a mere human can be loving toward others, (albeit mostly conditional if I’m honest), if I can be inclusive and accept those who are different to me even when I don’t always feel like it, then God has to be able to top that to be the almighty. Does that make sense? These are just my thoughts and you may not agree with them but it’s something to think about..


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 28, 2011, 16:59

I’ve been away and have just read through the latest posts. It’s exciting to witness your journey Brunski…reading the comments you have made – that not loving and accepting yourself is what you see as the main issue now.

Wow…this is awesome.

I will continue to pray for you.


I feel, however, to address the comment I made regarding not attending a church that preaches about sin.



As I see it, we have a message of grace for all the world. The message is that sin has been dealt with at the cross and no longer stands in the way of people coming to God – this is the reason Jesus died. He actually never preached sin, or focused on sin in people, or told his followers to preach sin.

Paul makes his message very clear that we have been made righteous through the life of Christ. We have been given his new life..and are sinless and spotless before God.


One of the things which causes me great concern and pain is that churches continue to mix the grace message with law and works. They will say salvation is a gift and we are completely forgiven…but…will then place requirements on people and tell them they are sinners. Now, its either one or the other…we are either righteous or we are sinners…we aren’t both and we don’t chop and change between the two. Jesus’ work on the cross was final…complete and finished!


Sorry for labouring the point…but as far as I see it, its a lack of the truth about grace that causes people to believe God doesn’t accept them. Grace and love underlies the whole acceptance and inclusion of everyone.

One reason I stand up for LGBT people is because I wholeheartedly believe in what Jesus has accomplished for all of us on the cross.. simply because there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The only thing for the world to do is embrace the grace…He holds NOTHING against anyone now!!!


So if a church is a condemning church, pointing out sins,…don’t be there. You don’t need to hear that crap!!!


That is where I come from…my point of view. I feel strongly about this. God has been revealing his amazing grace and love to me, and there IS a rest for the people of God. We are free to just be His kids.

But you don’t have to agree. If you don’t see salvation like this, that’s okay. I just felt to expand on what I meant by staying away from churches which have a sin focus and preach works, instead of GRACE!

Love and blessings, redeemed one.



Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 29, 2011, 19:35

Hi Anne Maree,


yes I am probably on to something, I know its more an issue of self acceptance on my part.

Ironically yesterday, our church sermon spoke about God and His love for us and how He has “lavished his love” on us ..

for the first time in a long time, I re-realised that God does love me, he accepts me and through Christ I have been washed, sanctified and justified, I have been made righteous in God’s eyes :bigsmile:

I left Church on Sunday feeling uplifted, I was in tears and found what I had almost lost, the knowledge that God LOVES ME!

Oddly enough, this morning as I read my daily devotional, I read the following “Don’t you sense the battle taking place in your heart – a battle between God’s way and the world’s way, a struggle between what you know is right and what you feel like doing … all day long the world will be pumping it’s world view into your heart and mind, At the same time your own fallen nature will be working to deceive your mind … ”


As I read this, I felt terribly guilty, there is a battle taking place in my heart – a battle between God’s way (possibly a way that does not include homosexuality, a way that says homosexuality is wrong and sinful) and the world’s way ( a way that says homosexuality is normal, its not sinful, it just another aspect of human sexuality) -a struggle between what you know is right (could that be, that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and unacceptable to God. That I should “repent and turn from my wicked way and stop dabbling in the sin of homosexuality) and what I feel like doing (continuing to dabble in homosexuality) all day the world is indeed pumping it’s world view into my heart & mind, that world view being that homosexuality is acceptable. Its “normal” and nothing to be ashamed of. And my fallen nature is working to deceive me in believing that homosexuality is acceptable to God and its not sinful.


Is it my learnt belief that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and immoral that led me to feeling guilty or was it the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin and reminding me that my homosexuality is a sin and for that I need to repent ?

I use to think that Guilt was not of God, that guilt came from the enemy of our soul, the Devil. But could it be that the guilt I felt (and still feel) is the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin, provoking these feelings of guilt so I will repent and turn from my wicked ways ?

Am I fooling myself in believing that there is nothing wrong with being gay? Have you & I been deceived by the father of lies in believing that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality or that God does not condemn homosexuality? That homosexuality is acceptable to God?



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 29, 2011, 22:21

Hi Brunski


You wrote:


As I read this, I felt terribly guilty, there is a battle taking place in my heart – a battle between God’s way (possibly a way that does not include homosexuality, a way that says homosexuality is wrong and sinful) and the world’s way ( a way that says homosexuality is normal, its not sinful, it just another aspect of human sexuality) -a struggle between what you know is right (could that be, that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and unacceptable to God. That I should “repent and turn from my wicked way and stop dabbling in the sin of homosexuality) and what I feel like doing (continuing to dabble in homosexuality) all day the world is indeed pumping it’s world view into my heart & mind, that world view being that homosexuality is acceptable. Its “normal” and nothing to be ashamed of. And my fallen nature is working to deceive me in believing that homosexuality is acceptable to God and its not sinful.


Is it my learnt belief that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and immoral that led me to feeling guilty or was it the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin and reminding me that my homosexuality is a sin and for that I need to repent ?

I use to think that Guilt was not of God, that guilt came from the enemy of our soul, the Devil. But could it be that the guilt I felt (and still feel) is the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin, provoking these feelings of guilt so I will repent and turn from my wicked ways ?

Am I fooling myself in believing that there is nothing wrong with being gay? Have you & I been deceived by the father of lies in believing that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality or that God does not condemn homosexuality? That homosexuality is acceptable to God?


I think it could well be your conditioning that’s causind the guilt and doubt rather than God. You ask how you know whether being gay is wrong.. What about if it’s right and you’re denying the gift given to you?


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 30, 2011, 06:44

There is a battle going on for your heart. God wants your heart, and you came to the realisation that God accepts you and you’ve been made righteous in his eyes. He loves you… THAT is great news! That is truth.


Isn’t this what you know is right? The world’s view is that you aren’t worthy and you’re not good enough. Guilt weighs down and oppresses. Jesus lifts up and brings freedom.

I believe God is showing you how worthy and how loved you are. If that is snatched away from you, is that the Holy Spirit’s doing?



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 30, 2011, 09:12

Hi Suzee


You said:



There is a battle going on for your heart. God wants your heart, and you came to the realisation that God accepts you and you’ve been made righteous in his eyes. He loves you… THAT is great news! That is truth.


Isn’t this what you know is right? The world’s view is that you aren’t worthy and you’re not good enough. Guilt weighs down and oppresses. Jesus lifts up and brings freedom.

I believe God is showing you how worthy and how loved you are. If that is snatched away from you, is that the Holy Spirit’s doing?


Great answer! I believe that too and it fits with scripture. 🙂


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 30, 2011, 20:00

Hey thanks for the encouragement Ann Maree. You rock! 😀


I’m only too happy to be involved in this discussion.


Blessings, Suzee


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