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Not religious

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Peter
 
Joined in 2010
November 27, 2010, 14:18

I notice the forum is predominantly about being gay and Christian. I’m not religious at all, so am not sure of the relevancy the forum would have for me personally.


Do you get many here not religious?



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 27, 2010, 14:33

I’m not religious.



Peter
 
Joined in 2010
November 27, 2010, 15:40

Um, perhaps I should have said, anyone not a believer?



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 27, 2010, 18:20

Hi Peter


Even the word ‘believer’ might be ambiguous in some circles. Do you mean a believer in the Christian faith as the be-all-and-end-all? If that’s what you mean, then I’m not a believer. I don’t even call myself a Christian anymore.


I have my own spiritual philosophy that continues to evolve as I develop further. I believe in God and Jesus but my views have widened to include other faiths and ideas. My ideas around Jesus have also changed. For instance, I don’t believe that Jesus, as I perceived him before, is the only way to heaven. And I apologise if this is offensive or something akin to heresy for some here. To clarify, where it is written: “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”, I think his ‘way’ is wider than I was taught in church. In fact, I think it includes a multitude of religions/ways of being all united for the common purpose of love. Now I appreciate that this might seem like a stretch to a lot of Christians to interpret this passage like that… And yet perhaps it’s not such a leap when we consider how many names are used for God thoughout the bible and the fact that these same names are used by those from other religions. I also recall the story of a muslim man who converted to christianity, and upon hearing the voice of God, commented that this was the same God he had heard in his previous prayer times in islam.


The way I look at scriptures and holy writings is much more open now. I love it when I learn things like the fact that early church people were very comfortable with the notion of past lives/reincarnations as part of their beliefs. This was not seen as incompatible with being a follower of ‘the way’ or ‘the light’. By contrast I was taught in pentecostal churches that a belief in reincarnation was some evil hindu/new age thing! And yet there are accepted biblical references to great Christian forefathers like Elijah, Moses and John the Baptist in relation with this topic.


I guess to sum up, I’m for ideas, people and practices that seek to unite and love rather than divide. I also think there is a place for atheism and agnosticism because those beliefs come out of healthy questioning and doubts. I like the Dalai Llama’s comment to the eager convert to buddhism: “No you don’t need to become a buddhist. Just be kind to people.” To me that stance is truly spiritual because it seeks to include rather than separate. It seeks the broader commonalities that exist way higher than religious ideas and institutions. It recognises that we are all connected although we’re often oblivious to that in the west and behave as if we are not.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Peter
 
Joined in 2010
November 27, 2010, 21:22

“Believer”, oh yes darl you get my drift, so to speak. It could also include anyone who believes in any god from any religion, including Islam and Judaism.


Personally, I perceive the human religions as a human interpretation of something far beyond our understanding, but an attempt to put that mysticism into our lives in a way that is supposed to be meaningful and reflect that. IMO religion in this respect has been a dismal failure. I can find nothing in the religious experience that encompasses the spirituality that I feel at times. There is no human concept that can define it, and personally I’ve given up trying.


I look at all scriptures, bibles, word of god, etc etc the same way. They are simply human attempts to define the indefinable. And I’d have to add that to use them as some kind of law/guide to get to some kind of imagined heaven is quite obscene. One thing has been gotten right though; occasionally the message of love does come through.


We as humans have a very limited perception. Two thirds of the universe is made up of “dark matter” that science can’t explain yet. Two thirds of the rooms we are sitting in right now are so. Our senses are limited by the sounds and light spectrum’s, our spiritual perceptions limited I suspect by the physical world we live in. We are animals that have evolved to consciousness. Given the way we often treat each other in conflict I don’t estimate we’ve moved much beyond that.


There is something more than our simple existence though, I guess in that sense (as much as I don’t want to admit it) I am some kind of “believer”.


I joined my wife in her walk to death, the way we treated each other in those last months an expression of our love for each other. We ended up alone on that journey in the last weeks, just me and her, as she chose me to be the one to share her last gift with; her death. She died peacefully with only me beside her bed. I know I will see her again on the other side, I can’t explain it but I just know….. such was our love for each other.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 27, 2010, 22:34

Hi Peter


I tend to agree that we as humans are arrogant and misguided if we think we can fully comprehend the mysteries of God. At the same time, I believe that God allows for our feeble and flawed attempts which is very humbling. And I still love the seeking process and discoveries I make along the way. I accept that the attainment of wisdom is a lifelong journey that I believe continues on into eternity. And rather than be daunted by that, I find it exciting to reflect on the vastness of the universe, God, the meaning of life etc. For me, a human expression of spirituality is still acceptable as long as it can stay dynamic, loving and relevant. The moment it becomes legalistic, it turns sour and is ruined. And that seems to happen a lot so I’ve concluded it’s human nature to try and control the uncontrollable. That’s the shadow side but the positive aspect for me is that this seeking journey provides meaning and purpose.


When I attended some evening classes in philosophy I had a spiritual crisis when we explored the concept of love. I’d previously thought I was a loving person and then realised how far off the mark I was. When I really looked at my underlying motives, much of the love I expressed was conditional rather than pure/unconditional. To realise that was quite devastating.


I believe the pure love like that which you describe between yourself and your wife is one of the few things that is eternal. As it indicates in I Corinthians 13, love does not fail and remains when other things cease. And because I think our true essences are made of love, we live on. It’s just a shame that the love often gets covered over by defences and crap during our time here on earth. On another note, I used to work in palliative care so I think I can appreciate something of the gift of your wife’s death to you and your presence to her during her last months and days. The sort of intimacy is very sacred.


Thank you for sharing.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Myfanwe
 
Joined in 2007
November 28, 2010, 02:25

Hi Peter,


I would say that I tend to vascilate between being a Christian/believer and being an agnostic/non-believer. It is a strange journey I walk and I don’t believe I’ve ever met anyone who can claim to walk anything near the way I do, apart from my partner, perhaps.


Hot and cold, sweet and sour, but never lukewarm or bland. That’s my relationship with God, Universe, Spirit, or whatever I happen to be calling it this week! :bigsmile:


I’m attending a Christian (Methodist) church, semi-regularly at the moment but not even sure I fit in there, either. I just take each day as it comes.


I think having you around here would be a great benefit to everyone, dare I say it, even you as long as you don’t think I am being patronizing. I’m really enjoying the discussion in this thread and getting a lot out of it, so your being here has been a benefit to me, already! 🙂



Peter
 
Joined in 2010
November 28, 2010, 13:52

I can’t help noticing the similarities between the way you talk about love Ann Maree, and some of the lyrics the U2 group has come out with over the years (I’m a big fan, going to see them next month).


“And love is not the easy thing…

The only baggage you can bring

Is all that you can’t leave behind”


Walk On


And yes, you are right, few people experience the depth of love that some of us are lucky to. There’s been a lot of crap happen to me over the years, but to know such a thing as what love really is is very very special. I have done that and know, and perhaps that in a sense is part of my journey. Have never been interested in a career or buying property, cars, things, etc. Have always been looking for the experience over the shallowness of the physical world.


Met a guy other month, I write about him on my blog. Have to say (especially being as I know what love really is) that we are both deeply in love. To come across that once in a lifetime is rare and special, but twice? Sort of makes up for all the crap I’ve been through.


PS, this is U2 on their latest tour they are bringing down under 8)



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 29, 2010, 15:31

Hi Peter


Lucky you seeing U2. I’m sure that concert will be amazing. They have some powerful songs and lyrics. I like the ones you have included above. Thank you! 🙂


You are even more lucky to know love in the way you do. And maybe you appreciate it more because of the awful stuff that’s happened? That’s certainly true for me anyway. I never take love or the sacred for granted because I know what it’s like to feel utterly bereft and without love.


Glad you’ve met someone nice. 🙂


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Peter
 
Joined in 2010
November 29, 2010, 19:41

I would like to ask if such songs that have such power, would you consider that a spiritual experience be associated with such as that?


Outside any church, outside any religious organisation, outside anything to do at all with the traditional view of faith. Yet huge masses of people are touched by these songs, and the grandier and hope that all mankind may love each other, putting differences aside. As in the “one” song, that we are all sisters and brothers on this planet?


Presently, U2 and other modern music has had, and has now, far more spiritual significance to me than any organised religion. The message is inclusive to all who hear, not just to the converted.


Edit:


Check out this vid.

Love and Peace


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