Syph - Male, 33.

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January 4, 2012, 23:51


Joined in 2011
January 5, 2012, 07:55

Hi again Syph,

there is much you write that I can very much relate to. Although I have only been working through things for a comparatively short time – I also a couple of months ago wanted to rationalise everything, get my pro and anti gay arguments sorted through in my mind. I too agree that none of us come to a debate "value free" – that it can be a human tendency to see things through the lens that suits our cause or position. I too always want to remain "objective" to give both sides an even space in my mind.

If you look back at my thread you will see that I wrestled with whether or not to go to a church service where the speaker was exploring "homosexuality" – from a fairly conservative evangelical standpoint. After weighing it up I decided not to attend.

I guess the key question is – Can any so called "rational" argument or position rationalise away feelings, attractions, desires, or sexual orientation, in short can "logic" or counter positions change who we are?

While I don't as you do, have a dad who will want to engage with me in these types of debates, I do have evangelical friends who down the track I am sure will for their own sakes want to figure out what I have done with all the so called Biblical "evidence" that they will preceive me as having turned my back on..

I don't have a way to explain this at this stage other than to say that for the moment I have chosen to just sit with some ambiguity around the Biblical arguments. I am not a Biblical scholar – I have not studied the ancient texts – however it is enough at this point for me to know that there are Christians who have – and that there are a lot of Christians who argue that the Bible does not speak of the loving same sex relationships we know today.

For someone who likes logic, this may seem like a cop out – but there is much about faith, God and a spiritual life that defies logic. Mother Hen suggested to me that God gave me my sexuality! Wow! How is that for a concept! I actually believe this to be true. God does not make mistakes, doesn't "mess up" or "get things wrong". God knows us intimately – so I have decided to thank him for this journey and even dare to ask him for a partner (and a woman at that!). 🙂

I was given advice by people on this site to be with people who affirmed my position – made me feel safe – rather than "assaulted" my being. Now the old me would have thought that this was just wimping out – that I should be able to stare counter arguments in the face and deal with them logically. However, I have taken this advice on board. The journey of coming out to oneself and others I have found to be enormous, at times overwhelming and exhausting. A bit of gentleness on oneself at such times would not go astray. Granted – a bit difficult for you if you have parents who you know so clearly have opposing views -however, may I encourage you to be a bit "intellectually gentle" on yourself :).

I do continue to read the debates, the books, to give some thought about the various Christian positions on sexuality – but I am not turning myself inside out to have it all figured out. I am not ready to enter a theological debate with anyone… and if pressed… that's what I will say to friends. In fact I have said that to one friend in a letter. There will undoubtedly come a time when I will be able to chanel my inner Anthony Venn Brown (ha ha) 🙂 and engage in such debates…knowing me I will want to sort the issue out more rationally. But – at such a new raw time…. that time is not now.

Hope some of this helps.

Thanks for continuing to share your story.

Sarab 🙂


January 5, 2012, 08:58


Joined in 2010
January 5, 2012, 12:20

Hi Syph

I totally agree with Mother Hen's comments above.

"I know you said parents, father in particular is lobbing different groups, well things change, they can change. Never say never. They can change their beliefs. Often we have the beliefs we do because no one has shown as a different view point of we are not in a place to change our views. There is nothing like your own son being gay to help make that change. So hang in there with them just love them and show them you are the same son who loves them. As they see you grow in confidence and your self worth improve it will all help soften their views."

I too am the mother of a gay son and it takes time for parents to come out to others as well. I had tears when I read your story especially when you said your parents were accepting. From a parents point of view, this is just so lovely and makes me very happy to hear and I'm sure their acceptance will grow as they gain more understanding and knowledge along the way.

You have overcome the first of many hurdles (and possibly the hardest) by telling your parents. Well done. Keep up the good work. I am also here if and when your parents want to PM another supporting, loving parent.

God Bless

Helen xxx

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
January 5, 2012, 12:56

Hi Syph

I very much like your thinking and that of Sarab's. 🙂

You mentioned that your Dad sent you an excerpt from Neil Whitehead's book, 'A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation'. I can't recall reading any of his writing so can't comment on that particular book or author. Interestingly though, the word "Scientific" in the title has made me think. At the moment we don't know if there is a gay gene so science doesn't yet have all the answers. So neither side, whether pro gay or anti gay (or somewhere in between) can be sure about the origins of homosexuality. It's also worth remembering that science is made up of theories supported or refuted by research, and these theories that underpin so-called objective knowledge sometimes change over time as we uncover more information. So there are gaps in science. And there are gaps in the bible. A brilliant bible scholar that I know once told me that we may never uncover certain information no matter how much bible study we do because much is lost to antiquity. In short there are unknowns in life and that's one of the only things we can be sure of!

Of course that doesn't mean you can't search out the truth in these areas if you feel so inclined. And if you want to 'debate', I guess that depends on how you feel and what's to be gained as a result of that. If each party is respectful and open to learning, to dialogue rather than beat each other down, then this is an important consideration. If however, both parties doggedly cling to their positions where being right is more important than relationship, I personally wouldn't be interested to engage in this. Only you can decide how this will be with your Dad, or other relationships and what you choose as a result. To help you decide, I think it's good to consider what kind of person your Dad is and what qualities are in his deepest heart beneath this struggle..

I agree that it's good to look at information as objectively as possible and to be aware of personal biases when reading any information. A lot of pro gay writing is just as embarrassing and flawed as anti gay material, without intelligent thought processes or an open spirit of enquiry evident. So that's something to keep in mind. I also like Sarab's point that much in life about emotions, relationships and God is subjective rather than objective.. And I believe this adds to the rich tapestry of life, art and faith rather than detracting from it. And as I believe you've already alluded to, subjective information is also valid, with objective 'truth' not the only authority.


Ann Maree

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
January 5, 2012, 13:10

Hi again Syph

The article you sent your Dad is a good one. If he's interested and you think it's beneficial, here's another one by Dr Keith Dyer also from John Mark Ministries. It's rather long but takes a moderate look at scripture and doesn't claim to have all the answers. This is in our support section under the Faith and Religion link with a lot of other articles.


Ann Maree

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
January 7, 2012, 22:11

aaaah….that is where they are. I was trying to find them the other day to send the link to someone.

I thought they had been lost in the transfer to the new site or waiting additional work.

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
January 9, 2012, 12:13

Hi Anthony

Yes it took me a little while to find them too. I've added them to my list of things to speak with Chris about. It will be a gradual process of making improvements to the new site, as we get time.


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