Where are there some rebuttals?

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Joined in 2011
September 4, 2013, 23:42

In all the gay marriage debate, I still sometimes read objections to it like:

"God made Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve," & also the one about a child needing a mum & a dad.

Is there a website that gives answers to these & other objections to gay marriage?

I mean, I can't think of a come-back to the Adam & Steve objection, but I would love to discover some.

Also, I am a bit concerned at the idea of a boy growing up with 2 mums. I mean, it would be hell for a 10 year old boy who is into football, loves playing with construction toys like toy-earthmoving equipment, & generally enjoys really masculine pastimes, while his mums are into dressmaking, cooking, & are fussy with the house cleaning. He would have no man about the house to look up to for a close role model, & to take him fishing, or help him build a billycart, or introduce him to motorcycling. This surely would result in a bad clash of the genders, & as he drifts into puberty, he will surely become severely alienated from his very feminine mums.

As a gay man, I realy couldn't stand being surrounded by so much femininity, but then, I also hate pubs.

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
September 5, 2013, 06:57

Hi deanbrodi

Here are some links to articles that give another view that is quite moderate. These can be found in our support section under faith and religion and biblical perspectives. There are other articles there too that you might find useful.

You might also enjoy our PM's response in relation to support of marriage equality.

I think it's important for a child to have role models in both genders in order to identify with their own gender for ideal development. I do not believe the child has to be living with both genders though. As long as there are nurturing parents and role models to share quality time with the child, I think that is ideal.

I hope that helps.


Ann Maree

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
September 7, 2013, 13:33

Posted by deanbrodi in another thread and moved by Ann Maree.

Thanks Ann, but it didn't even begin to answer my concerns about a real Aussie boy growing up with 2 mums but no adult male influence in the home. This is still frequently being used to object to gay marriage, & I'd like to see a gay-supportive response to this concern for the children involved.

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
September 7, 2013, 13:45

Hi Dean

I just moved your response from another thread to keep everything together. Somehow the thread duplicated. It probably happened at my end while I was having some computer troubles.

Anyway, my response above is the longer version of what I originally posted. In the shorter response I only put the pastor's response. Perhaps try the jmm articles in the links above. They may not answer your specific example of a boy being raised by two women. However they speak of another biblical interpretation which you might find useful.

I am reminded of the scripture in Galations 4:28 where it speaks of there being neither male nor female. In many ways I believe it doesn't matter about the gender of our parents. Rather it's about the parenting and whether there was love in the home.

Here are some links to other websites referring to children of LGBTI parents.

Dr Stuart Edser also has posted on the forums here from time to time. Here is the link to recent post from him.

He has a blog called 'Being Gay and Being Christian'. You could check that out and/or send him a PM if you like.


Ann Maree

Joined in 2011
September 9, 2013, 15:53

I am concerned about the gender stereotyping in your posting

You assume that all women are only interested in feminine pastimes. I know women who play sports, go fishing, ride motorbikes, enjoy a drink with mates, tinker in cars, enjoy fixing things and hang out in sheds- and they are not all lesbians either. And I know boys who love reading, singing, dressing up and watching movies- and they are not all gay either. So the chances of a boy having only so called masculine interests, being raised by two women who have only feminine interests, is not likely.

You also assume that if a boy is raised by two women he will have no contact with male role models. In such situations the boy often has contact with his biological father, with uncles, grandfathers, male friends of his parents, male teachers or sports coaches, etc. Any or all of these will provide male role models for him.

What a child needs most from his parents is unconditional love. Did anyone see the Compass programme on ABC last Sunday- it was about foster carers and showed a gay couple fostering a boy and a lesbian couple fostering his sister. The love and care these children received from their carers was truly powerful and was clearly having a very positive impact on the life of disturbed children. A gay couple I know are raising two daughters, and you could not get more loving parents- great to see two blokes willing to play with dolls with their little girls. So much for stereotypes.

Joined in 2005
September 11, 2013, 09:49

Hi deanbrodi

Thanks for your post.

In this post I wanted to discuss "God made Adam and Eve – not Adam and Steve which is an interesting one.

It leads to the question – WHO DID GOD Create. What is actually in the bible

Adam and Eve – who had three sons Cain, Abel and Seth.

Thats All we actually know. There are assumptions. Many believe that Eve (Mother of all life) had daughters and brothers and sisters married each other.

However – Leviticus 18 forbids this practise

“‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere"

That leaves us with the interesting Question – are Gods laws on sexual behaviour changeable ? Or WAS it always wrong to have sex with your Sister

More interestingly – there is a Jewish Tradition (see Midrash Rabbah – Genesis VIII:1) that suggests the line "male and female He created them" and believes that in Fact – Adam was Male and Female (Hermaphrodite – or we would call it today – intersexed) and thats how Eve was created – by Separating the Female from the Male. This view is one way to resolve the apparent contradiction between the two versions of the creation of Adam and Eve that are in the bible.

There is another view – that in fact God created more than Adam and Eve. There are hints of this in Genesis 4

Genesis 4:14-16. Cain says he will wander the earth and whoever finds him will kill him. That suggests more than one family is around

Genesis 4:17. Cain finds a wife, and builds the City Enoch. A city again suggests more than his brothers and sister. It suggests a lot of people. (and without trying to read too much into it. It doesnt say – the first city)

Genesis 4:26. “At that time people began to call upon the name of the LORD.” Who are the people "Beginning" to call upon the lord. Seth was after all the Son of Adam and eve.

SO what does all this mean. It means – that we dont know who God created. The Assumption that God Created Adam and Eve only – has problems that contradict other biblical text – and there is a definite Argument that God created Adam as intersexed. Those who argue that God didnt create adam and steve are implying gods laws on sexual behavior DO CHANGE – because they were saying it was OK for Cain and Abel to have sex with their sisters (who arent mentioned by the way) and later God said it wasnt OK – OR God created "Them" – others beside Adam and Eve – in which case – where does the Bible say – he DIDNT create Adam and Steve as well ? We have certainly decided that the bibles view on Slavery need to evolve so its reasonable given what we know now – (given sexuality is not a choice, not to mentions cases like the Intersexed and gender dysphoria) to evolve views on sexuality.

Certainly Homosexuality is Natural – it occurs in many animal species (hence it appears in nature and as such is "Natural") and there are good reasons for that. People once argued the world was flat because the Bible mentions the "4 corners of the earth". We know now the earth is not flat and that taking the bible too literally can be problematic. This is another area where problems occur if you try to pin it down to much. Im not trying to say that one view is right or wrong – but I am saying there are interesting issues with understanding who and how god created humanity and if you believe the bible is the word of God then (as the Jewish tradition says) any ambiguity is there for a reason and its usually then a bad idea to make assumptions and add things to the bible that it actually doesnt say.

It is actually quite possible (not saying he did or didnt) that God DID create Adam and Steve given there is a good argument he created others.

Anyway – I hope this os at least thought provoking.

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
September 11, 2013, 19:38

Hi Shadow Boxer

There is an argument to say that Genesis is not meant to be interpreted literally and that the creation story is allegorical or symbolic. If this is the case, and that's where my view leans, then your question still remains: Who did God create? And regardless of the answer to that, what do we do with that? I would hope that we do the best with what we have, whatever gender and situation.


Ann Maree

Joined in 2005
September 11, 2013, 21:14

By strange coincidence

I have on my Facebook feed tonight (posted by a friend) a picture that says

I dont know what people mean when they say


If God created all people

then Adam and Steve are included"


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