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Heaven vs Hell theology

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inertia
 
Joined in 2008
October 13, 2008, 18:41

OK i’ve transferred this from “Reconnecting with a damaged spirituality” as I thought it might be better as a separate topic!


Then I read a book that said “your purpose is the one you choose for yourself and no-one will stand in judgement of you in this life or the next”.


This is one that has bothered me intermittently through my life… when I was introduced to Christianity at a very young age through churches etc. there was a big focus on “judgement” and heaven and hell and I guess what could be labelled “scare tactics”…


I myself, through my teenage years “rededicated” my life to God many times, especially at the Youth Alive type rallies, and also dramas that travelled around the AOG churches like “Heavens Gates/Hells Flames” as I was so insecure about my salvation and particularly as I knew I was struggling big time with my (unwanted) same-sex attraction…


I actually find this heaven vs hell thing to be almost damaging to a positive sense of spirituality as it begins drives people (including myself) by fear and also starts to get people obsessing about “black and white” “right and wrong” literal interpretations of the bible (and how many variations of that are out there by the number of christian denominations etc!) SURELY this is not what faith is all about otherwise it’s a strange sort of god that just put us here to see who/how many would “stuff up” to cast them to hell?


As for me, I don’t know what I believe about heaven and hell any more but I sure know it’s hard to let go of the fear that is placed in me from a young age – and being gay doesn’t help as it’s one of those things were were always told is black and white – thereby leading to self-doubt and guilt etc. even after I suspect I have worked through some issues here.


How have people resolved this???? What do people believe???? It’s been bothering me lately…



oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
October 13, 2008, 19:36

Heaven and or Hell???????


what a subject!!


Just looking at different groups of churches/denominations, they have different takes on this so hmmmmmm i will be interested to see what people say on this.


You have your pretribulation rapture, your post tribulationists, you have your start of and middle of tribulation rapturists


you have those that say some scientists/researchers have discovered these tunnels/cascades/whatever they are called (i can’t remember right now) that apparently go deep into the center of the earth and they can hear screaming. Some christians have jumped on this and declare this to be hell.


I for one agree with you inertia that the church, certainly in the circles i was involved in, use/d hell as a scare tactic to ‘get people saved’. At the end of the day many were interested in the number who went up on the altar at the end of the night (statistics) for their competitiveness between each church. (You think i am just a bitter cynic – I tell you, some churches did that for real, i know, personally, I was in the offices for the staff meetings)

Then you had some who were legitimate and meant it, that they believe in heaven and hell, very seriously i might add. I know a wonderful dear old preacher who was saved that way in his youth, a delightful man, and loved people and never really overtly used that tactic on other people. But i do think, if you want to become a christian, love God, you should do it out of a love/positive experience, but i guess different courses for different horses.


Do I believe in heaven and hell. To be honest I am not sure, well perhaps i do, i certainly expect there to be something after this life that is for sure, but i wonder/question the validity of some teaching about the subject as i have a number of issues/questions and they go as far as saying, what was in the other post, about other world religions.


I wonder if christianity, like other religions have a bit of the elephant?? Not the whole thing.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
October 13, 2008, 19:57

I do believe in Heaven existing and also Hell, the whole point of Christ was for these two reasons, if they didnt exist what he did/suffered would be futile but I dont agree with all the judgement placed on people by “people”, God is bigger than that.


Trust me it would be too long to go into detail about why I believe as I do 😆 although what I wrote above is self explanatory but I do not fear going to Hell because I know Jesus has saved me and I believe/follow Him so Im sealed so Im told(via the bible). Its great being in that place of assurance but I doubt anyone is 100% certain but in saying that Im holding God at his word regarding salvation.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
October 13, 2008, 21:59

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Pearson


this entry about a well established pentecostal preacher in the US I guess is relevant to this thread.


Bishop Pearson attended Oral Roberts University, and was mentored by Oral Roberts. He was licensed and ordained in the Church of God in Christ. [2] Pearson formed his own church, Higher Dimensions, which became one of the largest in the city of Tulsa, Oklahoma. During the 1990s it grew to an attendance of over 5,000 and in 1997 Pearson was ordained a bishop. In 2000 he campaigned for George W. Bush and following the presidential inauguration was invited to the White House.


Controversy in ministry and resulting media coverage

“ A person who spends every day getting drunk, will ruin their health, marriage, family and career; they will make their lives a living Hell. But that still falls far short of the chronic alcoholic being condemned by a just God to literally burn in Hell forever and ever.


For others it may very well be that the punishment merited by their sins is greater than what they receive in this life. For those people perhaps there will be some kind of punishment after death, but we believe that it will be remedial and corrective rather than just punishment for punishment’s sake. Exactly what that will be and how long it will last we don’t know. Will Hell for some people last 10 minutes or 10 million years… we don’t know. But this we do know; Hell will not last for eternity; it will not be endless… Don’t sin. Be reunited with God now, rather than after you have put yourself (and those you love) through Hell.


—Bishop Pearson’s belief in hell as stated on his website [3]


Then after viewing a television program which depicted the wretched conditions of people dying in Rwanda, and considering the teaching of his church that non-Christians were destined for hell, Pearson felt he had received an epiphany from God, and stated that he doubted the concept of hell as it has been traditionally taught. In February 2002 he lost a primary bid for the mayorship of Tulsa.[4] By then Pearson had begun to call his doctrine—a variation on universal reconciliation—the Gospel of Inclusion, and many in his congregation began to leave.


In March 2004, after hearing Bishop Pearson’s argument for inclusion, the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops reached the conclusion that such teaching was heresy. [1] Officially recognised as a heretic, the once very popular Bishop Carlton Pearson rapidly began to lose his influence. [5]


Bishop Pearson’s story was the subject of an episode entitled “Heretics” on Chicago Public Radio’s This American Life, which aired on December 16, 2005. [6] This was followed by a profile on Dateline NBC on August 13, 2006.[7]


Pearson was the subject of a CNN story on June 24th, 2007 which covered his change to a more inclusive policy (including acceptance of LGBT people into his church) and the resulting negative backlash from the evangelical community. [8]



Current ministry


Bishop Pearson was accepted in the United Church of Christ and is now the founder and senior pastor of New Dimensions Church in Tulsa.



oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
October 14, 2008, 08:43

interesting ……….



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
October 14, 2008, 08:49

Just a disclaimer: I have only read the initial post and none of the responses, mostly because I’ve only had two hours sleep so my attention span is limited; forgive me if I repeat what has already been said.


Ok so here is my theory for which I have absolutely no evidence and is based only a vague assumption on the character of God. I have always thought that our intentions towards God and others, our motives behind the actions mean more to God than what it is we actually do. Let me explain.


I know people who do the “right thing” not because its right but because they know they will get credit for it, others will notice and tell them how wonderful they are. I also know people who have done the wrong thing but genuinely believed they were doing what was best, right and true. With the exception of the whole Christian/non-Christian debate and whether non-Christians will go to hell (since that involves totally different “god issues”) I think it can work logically within Christianity. Thus, there is a difference between willful sin and ignorance.


I’ve always said (ok well maybe not always but now I do) that homosexuality is not a heaven or hell issue because, at its root, its not about homosexuality at all. No one gets into heaven for being straight and no one goes to hell for being homosexual. It’s what we do with what we have, what God has given us to handle, that makes the difference. Let me explain.


Say person A is a gay Christian who believes gay theology and genuinely tries as best he can to live in accordance with God. Person B is gay and Christian but has chosen to dismiss Christianity altogether (at least for now, anyone up for a predestination debate?) in favor of expressing his sexuality as he sees fit. He is not convinced by pro-gay theology. I think these two people have vastly different standings with God not because of their actions which are the same (homosexual relationships etc) but because of the motives and intentions behind their actions. Thats not to say that pro-gay theology is not right or wrong in a black and white sense; it contradicts conservative theology so both cant be true but it means that our intentions towards God make the black and white pale in comparison… almost into insignificance.


It fits in with the whole Jesus is all we need, its not about what you do mindset too. If our intention is to glorify God, truly, honestly and with integrity then I need to believe God sees that, respects it and will eventually reward it. Lets face it, I’m going to get to heaven and God will say “Uh… what were you thinking?! Seriously child did you even pick up a Bible?! You’re theology is so badly off base its laughable”. We are trying to figure out God here! God! Chances are we are all going to make a heap of laughable mistakes along the way. I doubt its those mistakes that matter to God. He loves us, really I imagine, all He wants is for us to love Him back and part of that is doing what we believe He wants us too whether it turns out to be right or not in the end.



gettingthere
 
Joined in 2008
October 14, 2008, 18:09

Interesting topic. I don’t understand everything about heaven and hell. But I must say that I think theology should be based on evidence from the Bible, not just “I think this is mean, so it can’t be true.” That’s not right.


I believe in Heaven and Hell because I think the Bible is quite clear about it. I also believe John 3:16 – to get into heaven all you have to do is believe in Jesus. When it comes to salvation, I like to refer to the thief on the cross story, because that is the person who went to heaven after doing no works. Jesus told he would be with him in Paradise (Heaven), despite the fact that the man was a thief who was hanging on a cross for his wrongdoings. The third man on a cross was in the same situation, yet was not told he’d go to Heaven. The reason is the first man believed in Jesus while the other did not. Their previous actions were not as important as the belief.


I think a lot of people believe that if they are saved, they will go to Heaven but must always be afraid because they might mess something up and end up going to Hell instead. I don’t believe that. Throughout the Scripture there is reference to forgiveness and about us having Christ’s righteousness when we are judged instead of our own.


Again, I don’t understand everything about Heaven and Hell, but I do believe these things…

-Heaven and Hell are both real and eternal, spiritual realms as opposed to physical realms

-God is the final judge of who gets into Heaven.

-Belief on Jesus and forgiveness of our sins is necessary to enter Heaven. (What about those who never had the chance to hear? God will judge them and decide.)

-God does not “send people to Hell”. We are all going to Hell anyway. Rather, God “SAVES people from Hell”. This is a benevolent act. Rejection of his offer of salvation means that you will continue onwards towards Hell. It does not mean a change of course – your course is already set in that direction if you do not believe in Jesus.

-If you are saved, you are saved. You don’t have to fear that you will do something wrong that will make your salvation suddenly disappear. You aren’t going to ‘drop your salvation’. (There is a debate on whether or not you can lose your salvation, however everyone would agree that losing your salvation, assuming it is possible, would require an incredibly serious turnaround and rejection of God. Everyone sins now and again; God knows that. If a Christian sins, it does not mean that he or she has lost his or her salvation. Forgiveness is needed, yes, but your salvation would not be at stake.)


Yes, I know that might have been kind of blunt. But hey, I’ve got to say what I’ve got to say, you know? 🙂



gettingthere
 
Joined in 2008
October 14, 2008, 18:18

Say person A is a gay Christian who believes gay theology and genuinely tries as best he can to live in accordance with God. Person B is gay and Christian but has chosen to dismiss Christianity altogether (at least for now, anyone up for a predestination debate?) in favor of expressing his sexuality as he sees fit. He is not convinced by pro-gay theology. I think these two people have vastly different standings with God not because of their actions which are the same (homosexual relationships etc) but because of the motives and intentions behind their actions. Thats not to say that pro-gay theology is not right or wrong in a black and white sense; it contradicts conservative theology so both cant be true but it means that our intentions towards God make the black and white pale in comparison… almost into insignificance.


It fits in with the whole Jesus is all we need, its not about what you do mindset too. If our intention is to glorify God, truly, honestly and with integrity then I need to believe God sees that, respects it and will eventually reward it. Lets face it, I’m going to get to heaven and God will say “Uh… what were you thinking?! Seriously child did you even pick up a Bible?! You’re theology is so badly off base its laughable”. We are trying to figure out God here! God! Chances are we are all going to make a heap of laughable mistakes along the way. I doubt its those mistakes that matter to God. He loves us, really I imagine, all He wants is for us to love Him back and part of that is doing what we believe He wants us too whether it turns out to be right or not in the end.


I actually agree wholeheartedly with you Sandy on this. And in fact, I believe there is scripture to back this up. In 1 Corinthians, there is a thing about how if something goes against your conscience, then it would be a sin for you to do it. So I think that supports your idea. And as we always say, we don’t understand everything. But having a little picture is better than having no picture at all – we need to make the best with what we do know.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
October 14, 2008, 19:15

Love your input Bryan 😀 , we can only say it as we see it. I agree with what you say also about our concsience reference in corinthians.


We are all in different places on the journey so its good to share and help each other, luckily you have grasped this younger than most of us did so you dont have to battle with decades at times of guilt trips to overcome.

(I know you battled once upon a time and great you dont anymore)



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
October 14, 2008, 19:50

Ah good to know its actually biblical… that helps with the reliability doesn’t it? 😆


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