Forums

Homosexuality: the sin of coveting???

Page:   1 2
 
 

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
March 6, 2012, 08:20

Hi Reilly

Well your friend isn't against gay people which is great! I see no problem with people referring to the relationship between Jesus and the church and then comparing it as a model for marriage. In reality however, the church is not a very nice bride at times so I don't want to relate too deeply with that metaphor! And I agree with you that this would still apply whether marriage is between same sex or heterosexual people.

You said:


Personally, it doesn't make sense to me that as a single person, a woman is free, but then suddenly when she gets married, she is then to be submissive to a man. Of course, she would just say that sometimes what God desires for us doesn't seem to make sense to the world, or something like that….I don't know.


hehe. Well no, makes no sense to me. Statistics show that single women live much longer than their married counterparts. However married men live longer than their single peers. If a wife is required to look after her husband more than she receives in return, you can see how this might be advantageous to the husband but a lot of work for the woman, and so disadvantageous to her. No wonder single women live longer. 🙂 Apart from that, I think it depends how the words are being defined and played out. However, from what I recall, the fundamental church defines 'submissiveness' as letting the husband make the final decisions. And I disagree with that because it creates an unhealthy power balance. It's about two unequals coming together which is a disaster for both people involved. The other thought I had (and maybe this is what the fundamentalists are trying to articulate) is that men and women do have some inherent differences in their make-ups and it's good to honour those but not in a prescriptive, one-size fits all model. So for instance, there is an argument that men have historically been the protectors and providers and so should be allowed to express this and not be hampered. Yet some men choose something different and their wives are OK with that. I think the most important thing is for each person to be true to themselves and be who they were created to be.

Blessings,

Ann Maree



Reilly
 
Joined in 2011
March 6, 2012, 09:18

Hi Ann Maree,


Well, I guess she's not against gay people, although seeing them as different (like, she would be against gay marriage because it shouldn't be called marriage in her mind since that's between a man and a woman) is still kind of seeing gays as unequal to straight people. But I guess it's better than thinking we're all going to hell, that's true… 🙂


haha, I agree the Church is not a very nice bride sometimes. 😀


I also agree about the unhealthy power balance created by the typical fundamentalist understanding of submissiveness. I think my friend either hesitates to claim that sort of submissiveness is what is required to be God-honoring because it sounds so unhealthy, or she doesn't really know what she means by submissiveness, thus her saying it would be defined by each couple.


I prefer to look at things the way you do–it has to be about two equals coming together, being true to themselves.



Michelle
President
Joined in 2008
March 6, 2012, 18:12

Hi Reilly,

Thankyou so much for posting! It's great to know that you have previously utilized the resource section and received encouragement and answers simply by reading others posts 🙂 We can sometimes forget that people will still access the website for a while before they decide to sign up, but we are certainly glad you did.

Your post has had some fantastic responses thus far and I am not really a scholar however it made me think of the scripture about 'god removing the scales from their eyes'. (rough quote!) and certainly from my former Pentecostal viewpoint it can be very frustrating to want to pull the scales off ourselves! Lol!

One of my first pastors said to me 'know what you believe and why you believe it' this has served me well in my life and even more so since my time out of a church :)) as long as you continue to seek answers with integrity and a genuine heart, which it certainly seems you are, then you are journeying an honest path.

Warm regards

Michelle

Reilly
 
Joined in 2011
March 7, 2012, 15:16

Hi Michelle,

You make a good point about wanting to pull the scales off of people's eyes ourselves. 😀 I suppose I should leave that up to God, eh? haha.

I hope I'm seeking answers with a genuine heart–I sometimes wonder if I'm just trying to convince myself that it's ok to be gay, which is why I search so hard for logical, convincing arguments that support that. I honestly don't really search out opposing arguments because I'm so afraid I'll get convinced that I'm wrong, or that I'll come up against an argument that would force me to logically conclude that being gay is wrong–it hasn't happened yet, but I worry. So is it really a genuine search if I'm looking more at arguments that are pro-gay while excluding those that are anti-gay? I hope so…

Thanks for your encouragement. 🙂



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
March 7, 2012, 18:52

Hi Reilly

You raise a good point, and I can relate to questioning my own bias, worried that I might have previously only sought out what I wanted to hear. There is another way to look at it however. Why not forget about pro and anti gay because both of those positions are flawed in my opinion. I've read some equally silly pro gay ideas that make me cringe because, like a lot of the anti gay material, they lack intelligent thought and enquiry into biblical culture and context. Maybe just consider articles that are more middle of the road in their views and intelligent analysis of the scriptures. Authors like Dyer and Nettleton apply intellectual processes and don't have the bias that some others do. Avoid sensationalised, emotional sounding claims. The other thing to consider is what you think would be important to God. What was important to Jesus? Loving each other or fighting over doctrine such as whether it's OK to be gay? Giving to the poor, making peace with loved ones, being the best persons we can be or trying to prove we are right in a debate?… and these are just a few things that come to mind. I think as humans we have given great importance to debating issues all the while missing the point. I think we are a long way from loving each other in the way we need to, and we keep ourselves distracted from that task by debating things that don't matter one iota.

Just my thoughts anyway. What do you think?

Blessings,

Ann Maree



Reilly
 
Joined in 2011
March 8, 2012, 11:51

Hi Ann Maree,

You make an excellent point. When I really think about it, and think about how Jesus is portrayed in the Bible, it seems like God is more interested in loving people and having people love each other, rather than arguing over doctrine. There's a song that goes "they will know we are Christians by our love." I feel like today Christians seem to sing "they will know we are Christians by the set of beliefs we hold about church doctrine and social issues, by our political party, by our abstinence from pre-marital sex, by our abstinence from drinking alcohol," etc…I think I agree with you that we are missing the point. The focus needs to be on love.

But, I suppose if we're still looking at analysis of the gay debate, despite believing that God focuses more on love than doctrine, then forgetting about "pro-gay" and "anti-gay" arguments and just looking for middle of the road, intelligent analysis of Scriptures would be a good way of going about it–I like your suggestion. As long as I'm able to identify which arguments are middle of the road and intelligent, lol. I'm not a Biblical scholar, everything I learn about ancient cultures and historical context is all second-hand, taken on faith from people who generally are making a case for the acceptance of homosexuality. They seem rational, intelligent, and middle of the road to me (not all the arguments out there, of course, but the main ones that I base my understanding on) but that could just be my ignorance of the history/ancient languages/culture. Is it an intelligent/middle of the road viewpoint to say those "clobber passages" were mistranslated or misunderstood/misinterpreted? It seems so to me, but since I don't read ancient Greek, I'm entirely trusting those scholars that say the words or meanings in context are different than how they being presented now in English.

Again, though, that might be irrelevant if, as you suggested, I take into consideration what God's priorities seem to be–loving people first and foremost. I mean, doesn't it say various times in the Bible that loving God and loving others pretty much sums up the Law? Maybe it really is just that simple. I don't really see how being in a homosexual relationship would violate that.

These are just the things that pop into my head from time to time–I don't sit around constantly worried or wondering if I'm wrong or questioning everything I've come to believe. For the most part, I'm pretty settled in my belief that there is nothing wrong with being gay, and when I take the time to reason through it again I still come to that conclusion each time, as well as when I get into discussions about it with others. Every so often, though, a little doubt pops up, or after an argument I need a little reassurance, so it's nice to talk about it with people here. Thanks for being here to offer that reassurance. 🙂 I guess the self-doubt will fade with time? Hopefully…

I'll try to check out Dyer and Nettleton, since you say they are reliably intellectual and relatively unbiased. Thanks for the suggestion! 🙂

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
March 8, 2012, 19:26

Hey Reilly

You will find articles by Dyer and Nettleton in our Support section.

I wouldn't call myself a bible scholar either, having only completed a tiny bit of bible college. But what I did study changed my outlook. It made me realise the power of checking things out for myself rather than just accepting others' second hand views. I had a good concordance and other books to help me look into the Greek and Hebrew words and started to increasingly cross reference with other scriptures as well as look into the cultural and historical contexts behind the passages concerned. If you feel inclined to do this, I think you'll find good things while being satisfied that you're not just being led by another's bias. It's true that we all have bias and I don't think we ever completely remove it. However we can be committed to looking at information with as much awareness of our bias as possible and learn an intellectual process that helps place this aside.

As far as I'm concerned, interpretations which fall outside of loving people are incorrect and a misrepresentation of God. As you rightly said, love is the whole message of the law and of God, so in my view, if that isn't reflected in the message, it isn't right. Scriptures must fit with that overarching principle of love. And I agree with you that the requirement really is that simple that we love God and each other. And if we achieve that, nothing else matters. But the trouble with humans is that we complicate things and find simple messages difficult to follow. To love unconditionally, when there's a real cost to ourselves, is incredibly hard to achieve. So we busy ourselves with other stuff instead and clutter our lives with it. And before you know it, we've forgotten about love and are trying to be clever with insignificant things that have no eternal value.

But don't just take my opinion as truth. You need to find your own truth that resonates deep in your heart, and all the more, because you found it yourself. I mean it's great if what I've said helps you in that process but these are only my opinions and I'm not always right!

I think it's healthy to have some doubt. None of us have all the answers afterall and this is what makes life interesting. 🙂

Blessings,

Ann Maree

Reilly
 
Joined in 2011
March 9, 2012, 07:52

Hi Ann Maree,

I was reading your comment and when i got to the part about how loving other people is so hard for us that we focus on other things instead and clutter our lives with those things, I went "AHHH THAT'S SO TRUE" out loud, lol. 😀 So I stopped reading and began typing a response…

It's easier for us to create and follow a list of rules than it is for us to truly love each other! For some reason that really hit me at the moment I was reading it; It just has the ring of truth to it. Love is harder than legalism because it costs so much more to us. It requires much less effort to create a list of rules to follow–go to church every week, read your Bible every day, pray, fast, don't lie, don't get drunk, don't have sex, don't marry someone who isn't Christian, don't watch too much television–that all focus on us and make us feel more "righteous" or whatever, all while conveniently being just easy enough for us to get right (a lot of the time) and visible enough to make us feel good about ourselves in front of others when we follow that list, while secretly making us feel better than others when we see them not doing those things. It's so much easier and less complicated to do that, and to "work on" our pet "sins" when we fail to follow that list, than to selflessly love another person, all people, to sacrifice our own needs and wants for theirs–forgiving when we are wronged, doing good even when a wrong is done to us, giving up our time and energy to help others when we'd rather just spend some time to ourselves. Yeah, really loving people is practically impossible–it's complicated and messy and hard. It humbles you to think about it, it makes you realize how imperfect we are, how much we need God. At least, that's how I see it. And how much being gay or not being gay really doesn't matter at all.

I think this was what Jesus was saying, but people misinterpret it. When he talked about things like "it is said you shouldn't murder, but I say that if you hate another person, it is as if you have murdered them," (paraphrased, not sure about the exact words) people today think that means that hatred is just another thing to add to the list. But I think what he was really saying was that even if you think you're following the list, you really aren't because even hatred counts as murder–it's not loving your neighbor as yourself. No one can follow that list perfectly, so we shouldn't judge others. It's not about the list, it's much harder than the list. We should just try to learn to love as best we can and trust him. I think that people get scared by this sort of thinking because it requires so much more of us, you can't just follow a set of rules, life is so filled with grey areas, it's complicated, and it means that none of us are as "good" as we thought we were. It also means that all those "bad" people we Christians were looking down on might actually be living lives closer to God's desires than we are. It reminds me of Jesus talking to the Pharisees and saying "the tax collectors and prostitutes are getting into the kingdom of heaven ahead of you." (again, paraphrased, of course.)

And then I got to the part where you said "but don't just take my opinion as truth…you need to find your own truth that resonates deep in your heart and all the more so because you found it yourself." haha, whoops, now it looks like all that I wrote above is just taking your opinion as truth 😀 lol. Let's look at it, as you said, as your words helping me in the process. I've definitely had these thoughts before, but the way you said it shined a new or slightly different light on them–that it's easier to focus on those insignificant things than it is to really love people–that's how we humans are.

I know that you're not always right, no one is, but it definitely helps me to hear what others have to say. It gets me thinking through things so that I can find truths out for myself. 🙂

Any suggestions for good books/concordances/info about historical and cultural context?

(sorry for yet another too-long post, I really need to learn to be more concise!)

ShadowBoxer
Moderator
Joined in 2005
March 9, 2012, 09:54

Hey Reilly


Jesus did say – He who is without sin cast the first stone – and he also commanded us to not Judge others and I think your post touches on why.


I remember a discussion I had years ago with a scientist who was out here from China doing some work at the CSIRO.

I took him to telopea baptist with me and he loved it but he commented that the main reason we could spend time thinking and worrying about such non essential stuff was because we werent spending all our time just surviving as they were mostly doing in China (this was a long time ago)


now for people to worry what i do in my bedroom – when millions do not have access to food or clean water or education or freedom from violence shows a severely warped set of priorities I feel – especially as Jesus never said – police peoples sexual behaviour – but he did say – if u want to be perfect – give to the poor and he said dont judge others.


as for the list – we all know John 3:16. IT doesnt mention a list. These lists are a human invention (I suspect often a way of gaining power)


Now I´m going to play devils advocate for one moment – regarding ¨that I can find truths out for myself.¨ Im a great believer of that – but I think its worth having some system to check these somehow… I dont mean trust the pope or something – but sometimes People can convince themselves of odd things…. so its good to have a reality check of some sort…


I know people who wont open any windows in their house because they are afraid spirits will enter – and its so dusty – its a health hazard ! (As an example) – Thats a deliberately extreme (but true) example.

My solution to this is remember that only God is an epistemological absolute. Anyone else who says they know it all – are DEFINATELY wrong.

Anyone who doesnt want to keep learning – may not be worth learning much from.


Phill

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
March 9, 2012, 10:57

Hey Reilly

Yes you've got it! And I agree that we can help each other learn and find our own truths. It doesn't have to be a completely solo journey as long as we honour our inner guidance rather than being overly swayed by others. And it sounds as if you're listening to yourself well. 🙂

Blessings,

Ann Maree
Page:   1 2
 
WP Forum Server by ForumPress | LucidCrew
Version: 99.9; Page loaded in: 0.061 seconds.