How do I...

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Joined in 2008
December 2, 2010, 17:57

I’ve had a Christian say to me that while being gay is okay, living a gay lifestyle or being in a gay relationship is wrong because it’s against God’s order… I know compelling reason never convinces blinding emotion, but how do I respond?

Their argument is that if a gay relationship was right, it would produce children.


Joined in 2009
December 2, 2010, 18:33

So a relationship between a sterile man and a woman is not right?

Their logic doesn’t seem too solid.

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
December 2, 2010, 18:57

Hi Zed

Welcome to f2b!

Well there’s a lot of so-called ‘right’ heterosexual relationships that don’t produce children. It’s funny how reproduction is used to judge whether someone’s relationship/orientation is worthy or not. That’s quite a primitive measuring stick from the days when producing children and heirs was necessary for the survival of a nation or to keep one’s lineage going.

Where does it say that producing children is part of God’s order and what is “God’s order”? Certainly having a lineage and building populations was seen as a good thing in Jewish and middle eastern cultures and this is reflected in the bible. One reason for that is that strength in numbers was required in order to win wars and protect the people. However, I don’t see that as some kind of law/order that still has to prevail today. I just view it as common sense for primitive times.

I’d say that judging others and using flimsy arguments to do so is against ‘God’s order’.

I also know that a lot of gay people suffer terribly when not able to fully express who they are (including sexually) in an intimate relationship. In other words, restricting themselves to celibacy, (a gift given only to a few), unless called to that, can be quite damaging. And that’s not good. I believe we are all called to be fully who we are, and denying that creates hurt for us, others and God.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth.

What’s your views on this, Zed?


Ann Maree

Joined in 2007
December 2, 2010, 22:22

Hi Zed,

Welcome to Freedom2Be.

I get so annoyed with that whole “right” relationships thing and if homosexuality was right then we’d be able to have kids. That’s such a silly argument on many levels and I usually dismiss that with something along the lines of “Like the world needs more kids.” It really doesn’t need any more dignified response than that.

I also explain that my very wrong relationship with my ex-husband which was unhappy for us both, was in some respects more damaging than it was nurturing, etc, resulted in children, but that didn’t automatically make it a healthy or good relationship.

Recently, I watched a video from Bishop Jim Swilley, called “A real message for real people.” It was filmed at his “Church in the Now” on the night that he came out to his congregation. In that video message, he says something like no one in their right minds today, would go to Paul (the apostle) for advice on relationships. Paul was unmarried, and encouraged all people to be the same as him, single, and celibate. He had no children as far as we know, and he didn’t seem to be too terribly keen on women (as was the culture of his time).

I agree. If Paul was to come along today, offering his opinion on marriage and relationships, most people would dismiss him out of hand, yet, Christians uphold him as some kind of moral expert on today’s sexuality and relationships, which he very clearly is not and was never meant to be.

Paul was writing at a time when homosexuality as an orientation was not even recognized. He was adressing his remarks to people he considered to be ‘outside of the natural order’ because he was coming from the assumption that everyone is straight, which is simply not true.

The Bible in fact does not address orientational homosexuality, or loving committed homosexual relationships at all. It speaks to cultural idolatry and sexual abuse (sex in the worship of idols, and the Greek practice of older men having relationships with young boys).

The end of it all is, these people are attempting to put you back under the OT law and Jewish ritual cleanness which Paul himself condemned in the strongest possible terms.

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

I’d also like to suggest the excellent book Bullet Proof Faith, by Candace Chellew-Hodge. She goes into how to answer these kinds of arguments in the book and I found it really helpful in clarifying my own thoughts on these issues.

Blessings to you!

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
December 3, 2010, 02:03

hey Zed……glad you found us…..looks like you are getting some more helpful answers here than some in the other group.

I can almost guarantee this is a heterosexual male saying this and that he is only thinking of one thing……anal sex. Very very common. its because of their natural abhorrence to anything to do with male to male sex.

I do also wonder if this man knows what intimacy is….or has every experienced it. that would be a good question to throw back at him.

Whether it is a male or female……according to the not well thought out argument of your christian friend

it is wrong for sterile couples to have sex……no children will be reproduced.

it is wrong for a woman to have sex after she has reached menopause… children will be reproduced.

it is wrong for a heterosexual couple to have oral sex … children will be reproduced.

It is wrong for a man with mutilated genitals to have sex with his wife…… children will be reproduced.

Any more you can add to this list?

This person would probably quote from genesis to back up there argument……….but of course Genesis was not written as a sex manual……..just to let people know before creation their was god……and he/it/she……created an amazing universe. Reading more into that story than was intended always gets people into trouble.

I like what boy george said…..

There’s this illusion that homosexuals have sex and heterosexuals fall in love. That’s completely untrue. Everybody wants to be loved.

Joined in 2008
December 8, 2010, 23:11

Thanks for your comments here. I guess to level with people, I’m a married gay man and while I don’t think I will be for much longer, it was actually my wife who made the comment.

A long time ago, I decided that while I believed I had no problem with gay people, I had also decided that the lifestyle wasn’t for me. This was really a stupid decision, especially from where I am today but I do try not to see my past decisions as a mistake. I believe I made the best decisions possible with what I knew at the time.

Anyway, as lots of people have said, at 38 I have re-evaluated everything and found that I can never really be happy in my relationship with my wife and that I’m sure, after some time, that it will also be in her best interests for us to not be together. It’s upsetting that we have a 7 year old boy that will have to live through his parents breaking up.

I’ve resolved to hold myself together until after Christmas and then comes the crunch. Some of the questions she asks though are really beyond my ability to answer and I fear that it will make things harder than they already will be. I love her dearly but things have been tough for a long time, for both her and I.

I posted this comment as it’s something that she has brought up consistently and I don’t know how to respond. I don’t believe as I once did. I no longer suffer the internalised homophobia that I once did. I just don’t know how to explain what’s changed.

Maybe I’m just growing old or something. I don’t want to hide behind an unhappy marriage. I want to be happy and free to be who I am. While that should be enough, for my wife, it will never be. Anyway, I could rant for a long time. I’ll leave it here for now…

Again, thank you all for your comments.


Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
December 9, 2010, 23:24

why dont you tell your story in the telling our stories section Zed. here …..Read this first before you post it will give you some helpful guidelines.

I think this might be helpful for you on your continuing journey…..and sorting things out with your wife and family. We have quite a number here who have walked the journey before you and can add their own perspectives and support. . God how I wish I had that when I was going through things 20 years ago. There was not one person in my world who understood what I was going through. had I had a freedom 2 b[e] i know my journey would have been very different. Here you have an entire network who understand the dynamics of coming from a faith background.

what do you think?.

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