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Rowland Croucher quotes from - Pastoral Response to Homosexuality

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Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
December 1, 2010, 19:20

Hi Matt


I’m really sorry to hear you received abusive feedback. It’s one thing for people to disagree but another to be abusive, the latter being unacceptable. And thanks for the positive feedback about our site. It’s something to be proud of that we have a thoughtful and respectful culture here.


I think davidt makes some good points. And to be honest, like davidt, I’m not altogether surprised at the responses you received. I mean, I think your paper is helpful for the right audiences, such as a more conservative church one. However, it may be more difficult for hurting LGBT to receive.


I’m not sure of the specific comments that were made to you but I can certainly share my thoughts on what might have caused offence. (Below are some of the points I previously emailed to you some time ago in response to your paper).


While I appreciate that you were taking a pastoral approach that wasn’t intended to condemn nor engage in arguments over whether homosexuality is a sin or not, I felt there were some conflicting messages that might make some members of the LGBT community think they were being condemned. (Of course I and others who know you realise that’s the very last thing you would be doing). For instance, I wasn’t sure about your mention of homosexuality alongside the story of the adulterer. I wouldn’t class the sin of adultery alongside a sexual orientation. That makes it sound like you see homosexuality as a sin. And for really hurting LGBT, that could be the last straw. They might read that and not see anything else, including the positive comments you make about our community. It could be seen that we’re once more lumped in with evil doings, which I’m sure you can understand, is terribly discouraging. And there’s a sense for me that the LGBT community are expected to make concessions for the church, with congregations needing to be taught how to be non judgmental! It’s like we have to take a softly, softly, apologetic approach until church people can learn to be tolerant which is still a far cry from love.


The bit about respecting a person’s right to be part of an ex gay group is also a bit hard to take. I get that you are showing respect for a person’s right to choose their own path. However it could sound like you are condoning the torturous emotional, spiritual and physical abuse that’s dished out by quite a few ex gay groups. I personally think it’s an important pastoral response to ensure that church goers are fully informed about any program they may want to be part of before they agree to it. And as part of informed consent, that would include being advised of the negative aspects, techniques, requirements, ‘success’ rates and risks of such programs.


It’s good that you make the point about the often incorrect stereotype re promiscuity and LGBT. It annoys me how our community earns this reputation while there’s never a mention about the promiscuity of heterosexuals. I worked in sexual health clinics for years in the UK and saw far more more promiscuous heterosexual people than I did gay ones. That said, there was a certainly a small minority of quite promiscuous gay people, usually men. Overall however, LGBT people were not any more promiscuous. It’s also well known that lesbians have far fewer STIs, less risk of unwanted pregnancy and less chances of cervical cancer since they’re not as likely to be exposed to sperm that increases the risk. Interestingly, the church never talk about that do they? So you might say that lesbians are often “cleaner” and more healthy in this area than the rest of the population. Not that I want to discriminate against those with infections by saying that. However it’s interesting when others use the disease argument as the wrath of God against LGBT and lesbians don’t fit with that. So by their argument, God must be very pleased with lesbians!!


In terms of relationship options, I baulk at the old fashioned and out of touch stance that the church still takes toward sexuality and relationships, irrespective of orientation. I mean, what’s wrong with long term relationships rather than one person for life? Surely the church can consider that idea in the year 2010! But it would seem not.


Where you say the church has mostly acted with good intentions and then talk about Westboro and their hateful actions, that seems to weaken your argument. Surely, any group who act in hate don’t have good intentions. I get that in their minds they probably think they do however a sane person couldn’t agree with that. And while I know you were not condoning Westboro, it might be interpreted that you were making excuses for them.


Having said all that, there were plenty of very good things in your paper, such as your comparison of Gentiles and their acceptance into the early church with LGBT in modern times. (p.36) I also appreciated that you were looking at the pastoral response which is about real relationships rather than theoretical debates. That’s refreshing and well needed because human beings ideally thrive in healthy, healing relationships not dogma. And there seems to have been an overemphasis on debates in the past rather than real life.


Lastly, I very much liked your paragraph looking at the larger biblical truth as well as the point that heterosexuals don’t have to consider or declare their sexual status and therefore aren’t under the pressures that LGBT are. Thanks for pointing that out. It’s good to know you understand about that and are conveying same to others who probably are unaware of the anguish and inner working we go through.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
December 1, 2010, 23:26

Thanks for the encouragement everybody.


I really appreciate your insight and comments and the way you communicate them. This has been a 15+ year journey for me and I still feel like I’ve only scratched the surface. The act of writing the paper was healing for me in many ways and the feedback I’ve received (both positive and critical) has all been helpful in facilitating a few more steps in my journey and understanding.


This is one of the reasons I like it here so much (and at the F2B meetings themsleves). You’re happy for me to voice an opinion, but gently share your side of the story to correct me when I’m off the mark. Please never stop doing that – I’m more than happy to do what I can to reconcile the LGBT and church communities, but I know without a doubt that I can’t do it without you!!


I guess what took me by surprise over at GCN was the open hostility and the focus on one or two things while ignoring lots of what I’d said. Just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, that’s all. I expect oposition – I’ve had it for the whole journey – but this took me by surprise.


Anyway, I’ve been given the green light to go ahead and do a masters next year and I’m hoping to get ethical approval so I can expand the paper, but use real people rather than previously published stories. If the F2B forum folk say it’s ok, I’ll be calling on your help!


Thanks again for letting me walk the journey with you.


Matt



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
December 1, 2010, 23:34


All this can have a very significant impact on our health. Gays commit suicide at 6-8 times the national average. I am currently speaking with a guy now who I consider to be at a fairly serious risk of suicide as a direct result of how he was treated at church. Please pray for him would you?


I will. And for you too brother.


mrg



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
December 2, 2010, 00:20

It always catches us by surprise doesn’t Matt. I remember when he happened to me for the first time quite a number of years ago……and here I was thinking I was doing wonderful things for the community…….only to find I was attacked from the side I thought I was fighting for…….hehe.


its a great leveller……..


After a while I realised there was a simple answer to this problem. …….its called projection.


the we realise its actually not our problem…..but theirs……..sometimes we can talk them down or around…..but it takes every bit of grace you can muster…..and sometimes a waste of time and energy.


Like you say…..I also love the space we have in freedom 2 b[e]……..It was so important for me in getting this forum going that it was always…….always…..always respectful and supportive.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
December 2, 2010, 12:29

Hi Matt


It’s a pleasure having you with us. And thanks so much for the work you do and for being open and humble. 🙂


I guess what took me by surprise over at GCN was the open hostility and the focus on one or two things while ignoring lots of what I’d said. Just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, that’s all. I expect oposition – I’ve had it for the whole journey – but this took me by surprise.


Yes hostility like that is always shocking, isn’t it? And especially when you are trying to work for the betterment of the people that are being abusive. Maybe it’s more shocking too because there might be an expectation that those identifying as gay Christians might be more, um, Christian! Just a thought.. but sadly, those responses would suggest otherwise.


Actually I also think it’s sad when I see how much online abuse there is on various forums and sites – thankfully not ours. It’s absolutely staggering to me that people can be so emotionally blinded and unable to think clearly! I mean, I know some of us are more reflective and objective than others, depending on personality. However, emotionally abusive rants are a sign of immaturity rather than personality variations. And that behaviour signifies a major character flaw as far as I’m concerned.


Anyway, I’m all too happy to help with any research you’re doing next year. Fantastic!


Blessings,


Ann Maree



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
December 3, 2010, 22:39

It always catches us by surprise doesn’t Matt. I remember when he happened to me for the first time quite a number of years ago……and here I was thinking I was doing wonderful things for the community…….only to find I was attacked from the side I thought I was fighting for…….hehe.


its a great leveller……..


After a while I realised there was a simple answer to this problem. …….its called projection.


the we realise its actually not our problem…..but theirs……..sometimes we can talk them down or around…..but it takes every bit of grace you can muster…..and sometimes a waste of time and energy.


Like you say…..I also love the space we have in freedom 2 b[e]……..It was so important for me in getting this forum going that it was always…….always…..always respectful and supportive.


Thanks AVB!


I think I’ve recovered from the initial slap!!


To be fair, the feedback over at GCN has been much more balanced since the initial fury and much of what has been said is quite helpful. It’s given me a much greater awareness of the pain and persecution some of them (you) have to deal with on a daily basis.


Praying for all of you…


MRG



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
December 4, 2010, 11:36

yep…..thats what we a dealing with often…..hurt ….damaged people…..who have been traumatized.


And the most shocking thing of all is that this has all happened because of ignorance……which in my view makes the whole situation even more tragic.


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