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urbangatherer
 
Joined in 2013
January 24, 2013, 13:26

I'd love to share my ongoing story with you all.


When I was in my early teens, I was sent to live in a foster home that attended a pentecostal church and us girls all had to go, and as such many of us became Christians. My sexuality wasn't something I gave any thought to at the time, but I wasn't overly interested in marriage. When I was 17 I started living independently with a friend and she and I developed an extroadinarily close bond – when I look back on that friendship, it is very clear to me I had a crush on her at the time. Our friendship came to an end, I had a baby at 20 (through AI) and wasn't really Christian or non christian for a few years. When I was about 22 I started seriously questioning my sexuality, I don't know if there was a really 'defining' moment when I knew for sure, but when I finally acknowledged to myself the truth, the joy I felt was amazing.


But, I knew that being gay was a 'sin' and this played on my mind somewhat, so I called up some gay christians I found through the phonebook or LOTL and spoke to someone about the Bible, and when I asked her about if she believed what the Bible said, she replied "Why would you want to?" – which wasn't a winning argument in my mind, but I decided that if I was going to hell, then I was going to hell…. I was gay and I had no desire to change that.


I had my first same-sex kiss – and to this day it is still the most amazing experience I've ever had – it was just soooo beautiful and romantic (it probably helped that we were sitting under moonlight with a gentle rain falling on us..lol!) – but nothing ever came of it and I briefly hooked up with a good friend, but that turned out to be a disaster!


So here I was single with a child, no partner. I decided I wanted another baby and at 25 my 2nd child was born. I didn't think too much about relationships as I was busy with two kids and life in general.


Then probably about 6 or 7 months later, I got involved in some discussions with some Christian people. Ultra conservative christian people – at first I was just curious that folks such as these existed, they fascinated me, but slowly I was drawn in – there was something about 'biblical womanhood' that really appealed to me (still does, actually!) and next thing I knew, I was a born again, conservative christian who was in the process of 'praying away the gay', for want of a better expression.


To be honest, it wasn't that hard, I always feel guilty when I hear the struggles others went through, but I really didn't have those problems – like I said, something about the lifestyle appealed to me.


I went from believing I'd just have to be a 'celibate' christian lesbian, to believing that I really did 'need' a man and the only way forward for me was to find a man and get married. And I genuinely did believe that this was a good thing for and my kids. So even though I still had moments of same-sex attraction, I never had opportunity to act on it, so I was able to suppress it and start looking for a husband.


I got on those dating sites and met up with a guy and we got engaged. THANKFULLY I called it off due to various reasons, but I was left feeling like "when is this husband that is apparantly what God wants for me and crucial to my well being going to come along?" I remember being so frustrated one day, that I went into the bathroom and cried out to God to take this desire for marriage away from me – and it worked – I felt better immediately after (whether it was a god or psychology I don't know!)


So for a few years I plodded along on my conservative journey – you could have given me a plough and cap and plopped me in amongst the amish and I would have fit in and been right at home.


But I was starting to get frustrated that no one in my personal circles took religion as seriously as I did, and again, where was this husband I was starting to think I needed again!?


Anyway, in my early 30s, after 6 years of conservative christian living, the unimaginable happened – I became SERIOUSLY attracted to another woman – I was like "where did this come from?" – in the past I would suppress such thoughts and feelings, but for some reason, this time, I didn't – I started exploring these feelings, I started reading about sexuality again, I stopped going to church – nothing ever happened with the woman (she never knew and I think she is straight anyway!) but the seed had been watered and something was starting to grow.


I joined up with Pink sofa and lesbian parenting sites and got talking with other people, but no one really 'got' the religious side of stuff – I still thought I was going to hell, and suffered dreadful, DREADFUL anxiety because of it. I took the bible literally, and the Bible is very clear that sexual immorality and same sex attraction is wrong – I couldn't, and still don't really buy into sodom and gomorah being about 'hopitality' – especially when you read Jude 1:5-6 (think). So where did this leave me?


When I was on Pink Sofa, browsing through pics, I came across a long lost friend who I'd met in my early 20s – we agreed to meet up and talk about this issue, because she too, is from a christian background – her dad was a pastor and is still quite a fundamentalist christian.


Well, we didn't really sort anything out except for that we discovered we liked each other and 3 1/2 years later we are still together!


But faith issues still dig at me – there have been many times I've felt like ending the relationship and pursuing god again – even though my faith has changed dramatically. But there was comfort in my old faith, rules were rules were rules and it was very easy to live by them. Now I feel like I'm just floating free without an anchor. I don't know if I do believe in the God of the Bible anymore, when I think objectively about the old testament, I can't believe a loving God could be so harsh and cruel. But if that God doesn't exist, then what god does? I certainly and not a believer in evolution, creation makes way more sense to me, so who is the creator and what does he or she really want from us? These are the questions I struggle with. These are the reasons I seek out other gay or pro gay religious or ex religious people, because I want to know HOW you have peace of mind. HOW have you reconciled your faith. HOW do you know there is no hell, or if there is that you aren't going there….


So I really look forward to getting to know people and their stories on this forum, and I am SO grateful to have found it!


Urban

Michelle
President
Joined in 2008
January 24, 2013, 17:52

Hi Urban!

We are glad you found us also 🙂

Thank you for sharing some of your story with us. I too am from a Pente background and can certainly draw some parallels. I happened to fall in love with my best friend, nearly seven years ago now, and that led us to freedom2b!

Please take some time to look around the website and read some of the stories (Mine and Linda's are in there somewhere ;))

Again welcome

Warm regards

Michelle

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
January 24, 2013, 21:10

Hi Urban

Thanks for sharing part of your story. 🙂 You are very welcome here and we don't have an agenda in terms of beliefs. We just offer support and a space for you to find yourself and we will be here for you, no matter what path you choose. 🙂

You said:


But faith issues still dig at me – there have been many times I've felt like ending the relationship and pursuing god again – even though my faith has changed dramatically. But there was comfort in my old faith, rules were rules were rules and it was very easy to live by them. Now I feel like I'm just floating free without an anchor. I don't know if I do believe in the God of the Bible anymore, when I think objectively about the old testament, I can't believe a loving God could be so harsh and cruel. But if that God doesn't exist, then what god does? I certainly and not a believer in evolution, creation makes way more sense to me, so who is the creator and what does he or she really want from us? These are the questions I struggle with. These are the reasons I seek out other gay or pro gay religious or ex religious people, because I want to know HOW you have peace of mind. HOW have you reconciled your faith. HOW do you know there is no hell, or if there is that you aren't going there….


These are all good but difficult questions to answer… May I suggest for starters that you take a look at our resource articles in the support section.. There's a couple of pieces looking at the bible in relation to homosexuality and they may offer you a different view that's moderate and intellectual. In terms of how I reconciled my own faith and sexuality, I started by reading books and articles from both sides of the pro gay and anti gay camps and gravitated toward intelligent arguments. And then I weighed those up against my own research of the bible looking at original Greek and Hebrew and tried to take things into context with overarching principles in the bible. (I've always enjoyed proper bible studies).

I've come to the conclusion that we create our own heaven or hell starting right now. I have no proof for that but I believe that how we choose to live now will direct where and how we live later. So if I choose love and happiness now that bodes well for later.

In relation to the bible, many parts of it are not meant to be taken literally but that doesn't mean they are not beautiful or useful in other ways. When I first stopped going to Pentecostal churches, I was quite lost for some time. It was very difficult not having the clear direction from the church that I had previously which allowed me to feel safe and secure. It took me quite a while to adjust to that free floating experience that you describe so well. But you know, it was a necessary albeit uncomfortable part of my journey. And I survived it and learned to find my own answers rather than being spoon fed. And I came to peace. I just realised that a loving God wouldn't shun people who love the same sex. I have no proof, only a deep sense of certainty and peace. And I believe that if I can be accepting of others, then the God that I believe in has to be that and much more, otherwise why would I want to believe in such a God or be with him/her in eternity?

I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. It's a quick answer in relation to what occurred over many years of my personal development. Keep asking questions. Others here will have some good answers in light of their own experiences. 🙂

Blessings,

Ann Maree



J
 
Joined in 2012
January 24, 2013, 22:05

Hey Urban 😛 thanks for sharing your story with us and welcome to F2B!


I know what it's like to take the bible literally. I personally suffered from deep depression and self loathed for 10 years because of what the bible supposedly said about gays, and I tried the 'pray the gay away' thing too, and I even got water baptised, but nothing changed my sexuality. I was still attracted to guys. After coming out to my parents I wanted answers fast. I noticed you mention you're still not convinced on the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing. Trust me, both my mum AND I weren't convinced either, until I heard this sermon by Rob Buckingham which REALLY challenged my view on Sodom and Gommorah and it really opened my eyes.


Here's the whole sermon on it anyway (And it can be downloaded for free on iTunes if you really like it. It is under 'bayside church', episode 'real christianity is accepting':


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DPfql9A_vc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIez3WErnfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M62T4czN8SY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv7EwO4f6G8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slfprUmzNVI


Also, the words Sodomy and Sodomite weren't actually coined until the 15th century. And, in Ezekial 16:49-50 it actually tells us what the sin of Sodom is, nowhere does it mention homosexuality in the slighest bit.


Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.


You're more than welcome to check that passage out for yourself ^_^


The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is a story of wicked people whose intent was to sexually violate these visitors (rape) of whom they felt threatened by. This was quite common in those days (and is sadly common to this day). In fact, back then, the Romans raped their fallen enemies to humiliate them and claim victory – and back then, most, if not all of the battles obviously had heterosexual men, so the only way to sexually violate them was through anal sex – which many people now assume and believe that Sodom must have meant Sodomy, which they associate with Anal Sex, which they ultimately associate with Homosexuality (and many extremists then go a step further and claim homosexuality = beastiality *rolls eyes*).


The whole context of Sodom and Gomorrah has been taken way out of context. Let us say that even if ALL the men of Sodom, both young and old, were indeed gay (which is highly unlikely because even in a world of 6+ billion people, not even Boystown, Chicago or San Francicso has a 100% same-sex attracted population), why would Lot offer all these *supposedly* gay men, his two virgin DAUGHTERS? Gay men would not be interested in having sex with women. Also, if the two male angels had been female, people would rightfully assume that the story was about attempted gang rape, not homosexuality or homosexual sex.


There's this book that has helped me tremendously and truly opened my eyes to what the 6 clobber passages actually say. The book is called 'The Children Are Free: Re-examining the Biblical Evidence on Same-Sex Relationships' by Rev. Jeff Miner and John Tyler Connolly. I highly recommend the book. There's also 'Unchristian' by David Kinnaman, if you're interested – it has helped me anyway.


You say here:


I can't believe a loving God could be so harsh and cruel


That's exactly what I thought. I once figured 'If the bible condemns me to hell for something I never chose in the first place, why don't I just worship Satan, get everything I want in this life, then pack my bags for when he wants to take me?', obviously it made no sense that a loving God who created me, would punish me for being my true self.


I want to know HOW you have peace of mind. HOW have you reconciled your faith. HOW do you know there is no hell, or if there is that you aren't going there….


I can't say I have 100% peace of mind. Heck, I've had 10 years of hating myself, and I still do many days, I do struggle in a world full of ignorance, but I refuse to let haters get the best of me, because I do deserve to stay alive and experience love, and if I give up my life, they win, and I won't let society dictate what I can and cannot do, and who I can and cannot love.


I have somewhat reconciled my faith and sexuality knowing that God created me just as I am. Why I was given the 'gay card' I will NEVER understand, but I try to think of the positives. I think if I hadn't been born gay, I would not empathise as much as I do nowadays, with minorities and people who feel like outcasts in society. I have a lot more respect for others, and even if I were given the option to turn straight, I wouldn't change it for the world.


I think one thing I have learnt is:


to know that we know nothing.


Isn't it true? Many days I think 'If I were born in a forest, how am I to know about Jesus, or even the bible or other religions for that matter?'. I believe there is one true God who created us though, and that we all come from the same one, whether through creation, evolution, or even a mix, I will never know or understand everything, or even if there is a heaven or hell (hopefully it'll all be answered when I die, but until then, I'm not giving it a second thought), all I know is that the evidence is all around us that God, (or some highly intelligent being, whatever you want to call that 'eternal search for something that cannot be found in this current life') exists, and I refuse to believe that everything so beautiful in this world was just an act of randomness by nothing. I will never understand why God ignores me many times (I've given up asking). In fact I have given up praying altogether, because it seems my prayers are only answered around 3% of the time, and that is not enough for me, but that's just my own personal experience.


I do hold a LOT of resentment towards the church and mainstream Christianity for making me feel so bad about myself, and ultimately driving me to 3 suicide attempts by the time I was merely 15 years old (and a 4th attempt almost happened after a pastor spewed a horrible homophobic remark to me). I no longer go to church because I feel like my spirit is crushed everytime, rather than fulfilled, but that is just my own personal experience too, for others it may be the exact opposite and helps them tremendously. For me, it doesn't.


I do still believe in God, I just sometimes don't like some of his followers who preach a gospel of hate, rather than a gospel of love and compassion, because I have a very sensitive temperament (I am a mix of melancholy/phlegmatic), which, when combined with the fact that I'm gay, is very dangerous.


I believe our goal is to love one another, and leave the judging up to God. I simply cannot fathom how a loving God who created me, would send me to hell for being my true self. There are many things in the bible I don't understand too, but I have learned that the bible shouldn't be taken 100% literally (otherwise we'd all be stoned to death for disobeying our parents… *admits being guilty of this*, among other things). It should be understood in its full context, as many people have misinterpreted it over the generations (encouragement of slavery / treatment of women / anti-homosexual / the world being flat – to name a few examples). It brings me great comfort knowing that even people back in the bible days misinterpreted things. Jesus said he would rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem for example, in 3 days. The temple itself took FOREVER for those people to build, so they were astonished by what Jesus said and asked how He could do such an impossible task. Jesus corrected them basically saying 'You don't understand, I will be the new temple'.


I have found tremendous freedom knowing that we're all sinners and that we all fall short of the glory of God, but thanks to Jesus, we've been saved (many people have somehow forgotten about this), and if people don't like me for who I am (excuse the language), F%5[< 'em! 🙂 life really is too short to be around ignorant people, and if one day I should find my prince charming, I will kiss him without shame, because if people don't like that, that's their problem, not mine, and I deserve the basic human right to love too.

Mother Hen
 
Joined in 2011
January 29, 2013, 17:24

Hi Urban,


Like the other's who have replied I would like to welcome you to F2B, this is a fantastic group, where you will find, encouragement, support, acceptance and hopefully some answers 🙂 If you can I would encourage you to go to F2B meeting, where you can be amongst friends and have a great time, always lots of fun 🙂


From reading the many amazing stories of courageous people like yourself it is clear many have struggled with reconciling their faith and sexuality. If you read through the many stories and discussions on this site I think you will see you are not alone and will also find hope that these issues can be resolved and questions answered, that you can find a place of peace.


I encourage you to read this post, posted by Mr Summit, one of the leaders of the Brisbane F2B group. Last year they had a discussion at the Brisbane meeting about "What does the bible actually say about homosexuality" he has posted the resources he used on the night. You might find some very useful information there for yourself. I think it was very well presented and a lot of thought and research had gone into the night. I might be a tad biased as he is my son 🙂 http://www.freedom2b.org/forums/resources-from-brisbane-chapter-meeting-what-does-the-bible-actually-say-about-homosexuality-t1934/


Thank you so much for sharing your story and I look forward to reading more of your journey 🙂


God Bless

outnproud
 
Joined in 2011
February 4, 2013, 15:53

Hi Urban


Welcome to freedom2b! I hope we are able to walk with you on your journey.


You have asked some great questions about faith, ones that many of us have struggled with. It is hard being torn between your relationship and your faith, feeling that you need to abandon one or the other. Some people do decide to give up on thier faith and others reject thier relationship. But it is possible also to reconcile both your faith and your sexuality, but this involves letting go of some images you may have of God and discovering new ones. Discovering that God is not a God of rules who needs to be obeyed or else you will be punished, but that God is infinite love and mercy, who recognises that all of us are sinners but loves us nevertheless. It means taking seriously the witness of Jesus who consistently refused to condemn and instead befriended the ones that the religious people labelled as unclean, outsiders, sinners etc (Samartians, lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors, the woman caught in adultery) often holding them up as models of true love and faith (the Good Samaritan, the Syro Phonecian woman, the woman at the well etc). May be the God you have believed in does not exist. Maybe though there is a different God waiting for you with arms wide open to welcome you home. This could well be the God of creation who made all people both gay and straight and declared that all God made was good.


This is how I have peace of mind- I know that God loves me and accepts me just as I am. Yes I am a sinner, but being a lesbian is not what makes me sinful, and my sin is no better nor worse than anyone elses. But through faith in Jesus, I am free of fear, and guilt and despair.


Hell does exist but my belief is that it exists here on earth, not as an eternal punishment for sin after death. Hell is experienced when we constantly feel unworthy, alone, rejected, fearful, alienated from God and others, when we hate ourselves for who we are. Heaven also can be experienced here on earth, when we accept ourselves and when we discover we are part of God's good creation, loved by God and others. I hope that you will be able to discover this heaven on earth and live within the joy and peace of it.


Bev

sarab
 
Joined in 2011
February 4, 2013, 21:51

Hi Urban

I really like what Bev has had to say here about getting to know a new or different God. A God of love, mercy and compassion – as opposed to a God of judgement.

I can though, appreciate how difficult it can be to let go of existing constructs or understandings of God – gosh – I'm still figuring it all out too.


Your post Urban really resonated with me. I laughed at your comment "you could have given me a plough and a cap and plopped me in among the Amish"… I too, chose to hang out in very conservative Christian circles – have done so for about 20 years. It was indeed confusion around sexuality that saw me "jump ship" to a less conservative church and a same sex affirming church at that.


I can really relate to the sense of comfort you express in your "old faith" "rules were rules and it was very easy to live by them" – Your expression of "floating free" without an anchor could have well come from my lips – just how I have felt (and sometimes still feel).

Your questions "How have you reconciled your faith?" "How do you know there's no hell?" "Who is the creator and what does he/she want from us?" Wow – great questions!! Actually, very similar to my own questions!


And so – what fabulous words of wisdom can I offer?


I left my old church and have been going to a new church for about a year and a half. The minister there (also a lesbian) has begun to introduce me to a more loving God. She leant me Philip Yancey's book "What's so amazing about grace"? and this has helped a bit… I am beginning to think life is more about the love and life of Jesus. Who was Christ in the world? Loving and standing by the oppressed, loving our neighbour, speaking out against injustice, speaking words that help not harm…


I am also beginning to learn to sit with uncertainty. I think that those old "rules" of faith those "certainties" only served to limit God – to confine God to the limits of my own understanding. Now, I am starting to accept that some of my questions actually have no answers – at least in this life… maybe not having "the answer" allows God to be bigger and more powerful, more mysterious than we allow.


As for heaven and hell – for the moment I have set this concern aside. After all, if God is as big as we think he/she is.. surely it has always been God's decision/plan in relation to our eternal future – ie God decides… This is the case regardless of how "rule bound" we are… surely no amount of "following the rules" can somehow earn a ticket to heaven?? And so… God made us – he/she knows us and loves us … knows our struggles…. knows who we are in relation to our sexuality… and LOVES us. I do think that faith and sexuality – same sex attraction can be reconciled. God is bigger and more loving than the judgmement we may encounter from conservative Christians that says otherwise.

Anyway – hope that helps. if you are in Sydney I have a church recommendation for you!


Sarab 🙂



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
February 8, 2013, 13:15

all you lovely well thought out responses. I do hope Urban is reading them.
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