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Working together - The Church & LGBT Community

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HillsBen
Youth Coordinator
Joined in 2008
October 11, 2010, 22:15

Hey all,


I just wrote a new blog post and thought that it would also make an interesting discussion.


You can find it at http://bennygresham.blogspot.com but I have also included it below.




Almost every day I talk to a gay person that just doesn’t understand why I would bother keeping my faith and why I would bother investing my time in building bridges between the church and the gay community. I think this comes down to a huge level of ignorance and the fact that the majority of LGBT people and the majority of Christians don’t really understand what’s really happening on the ‘other side’.


Whether you call Christianity a religion or a faith, you need to know that God doesn’t discriminate against the LGBT community – PEOPLE DO!!


Every individual has to make their own choices and people from religious backgrounds and non-religious backgrounds discriminate against LGBT people all the time. The Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard is a strong atheist and she has repeatedly stated that she does not support same-sex marriage from a personal and political perspective. She is one example of many!


Also most of the direct discrimination I have encountered has been from non-religious people. Churches aren’t anti-gay because they hate gay people and the LGBT community is not anti-religion because they hate God! Both sides are ignorant and IGNORANCE IS THE REAL PROBLEM! Both sides have never had dialogue and learnt from each other. It’s always been this mini war about one-side against another in which no-one wins but everyone loses.


My great friend and mentor Anthony Venn-Brown often says “the enemy we fight is not individuals, political parties or denominations – the enemy is ignorance”.


Whether you are a straight Christian woman or an gay male atheist, we need to encourage dialogue and build a bridge between the LGBT community and churches. We should not be militant, we should not be bitter! We must simply try to get people to talk…and that is the first step. We need to stand in the gap!


Conferences such as ‘A Different Conversation’, books such as Andrew Marin’s ‘Love is An Orientation’ and organisations such as freedom 2 b[e], Soulforce and 100 Revs are making a real effort in bridging this gap!


Churches and Religious organisations will never go away and neither will the LGBT community. So we either keep fighting or we start talking peacefully about things and work together to really help people? Think about it? One creates peace, another creates war!


What would Jesus do?



HillsBen
Youth Coordinator
Joined in 2008
October 11, 2010, 22:18

What are your thoughts??



Mr Summit
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2010
October 11, 2010, 23:30

This reminds me a lot of Love is an Orientation, where it talks about how bridges get walked on by both sides.


I kind of agree, I kind of don’t. I agree that Ignorance is a huge problem but I don’t know if it is the “real problem”, it definitely contributes.


I spend a lot of time working on raising awareness about global poverty and Australia’s lackluster aid program. Whilst it is true that ignorance is a contributing factor to the challenges we face, another truth is that many people know that poverty is bad, but they just don’t really care.


I’m not sure if education alone can make someone compassionate. On the flip side I don’t think being ignorant makes you cruel either. I know very little about, say, serious addictions or ADHD or even transsexualism, but I would hope that when I meet people who are stigmatized by these things I would still be compassionate.


Similarly, a lot of the guys behind ex-gay programs definitely are not ignorant.


So yeah, I guess I would say ignorance is very significant, but I am not convinced that there is a one-to-one relationship between ignorance and the lack of compassion or respect that you describe. I would say that ignorance is one of a few things we can definitely do something about though.


I hope that all makes sense.



forestgrey
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2008
October 12, 2010, 05:45

I think you are both right.


Ignorance is a big issue. And we must keep working on the dialogue and bridge-building. But, the whole issue is too complicated to say ignorance is the onlz issue. BUT, Ben, you are right in following the “attack ignorance” line. Others can follow the other lines.


Bless ya.


(Writing from Switzerland this time)



RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
October 12, 2010, 06:31

Querido Familia,


I believe that much of what you say is true. Ignorance is always part of the problem in any field. But I think the problem is much greater than that:


1. It is political/social opportunism: As history shows us, both non-religious and religious persons can be equally hostile to homosexuals. By the same token, both non-religious and religious persons can be equally dedicated to protecting, enriching and advocating for the rights and lives of LGBT persons. Why is this? Because in any given society, those in power will subjugate a minority and use their pain as a scapegoat for their own ambitions. The Australian Jellyfish (aka Ms. Gillard) did this. The American Democratic Party did this. The American Republican Party did this. This issue is not so much a religious one, but rather one that is very secular and very, very human: the desire for power.


2. Anger is the mind killer: As Che Guevara proved, once you have poisoned a mind with anger, the ability to reason, the ability to resist being dominated by the will of another weakens. By making their respective “sides” demonize and despise the other, both liberals and conservatives more easily exert control over the masses. Liberal demagogues feed their listeners stories of “EVIL XIANS” and “TYRANNICAL CONS” who, if allowed power will kill all homosexuals or put them in chains. Gay Christians? Gay Conservatives? Traitors who must be purged or “made to bleed” as Dan Savage would say. Conservative talking heads fill their audiences ears with stories of “RAPACIOUS, ELITIST QUEERS” and “LIBERAL COMMUNISTS” who, if given the opportunity will molest their children, burn down schools and churches and steal their money, Pro-Gay Heterosexuals? Pro-Gay Christians? Quisling servants of the Libs who must be purged or “made to bleed”. Eliminate the middle ground, and demonize your foe, and soon your word becomes law and people will do whatever you command. Why? Because if you don’t you are letting the “other side” win. You aren’t a traitor are you? Then do not question us! Do as you are ordered! The irony of course is that the taskmasters are doing exactly what they accuse the other side of.


A sad state of affairs. 🙁


Yours in Christ,


Raul



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
October 12, 2010, 18:04

Hi Everyone


I spend a lot of time working on raising awareness about global poverty and Australia’s lackluster aid program. Whilst it is true that ignorance is a contributing factor to the challenges we face, another truth is that many people know that poverty is bad, but they just don’t really care.


I’m not sure if education alone can make someone compassionate. On the flip side I don’t think being ignorant makes you cruel either. I know very little about, say, serious addictions or ADHD or even transsexualism, but I would hope that when I meet people who are stigmatized by these things I would still be compassionate.


Similarly, a lot of the guys behind ex-gay programs definitely are not ignorant.


So yeah, I guess I would say ignorance is very significant, but I am not convinced that there is a one-to-one relationship between ignorance and the lack of compassion or respect that you describe. I would say that ignorance is one of a few things we can definitely do something about though.


Thanks Mr Summit for these intelligent remarks. And thanks Ben for raising this topic and for the peace makers like avb, yourself, Raul, forestgrey and others. And yes, forestgrey, the issue is more complex than just being about ignorance alone. Raul, thanks for your political perspective also. How awful to live in a regime where people are silenced by threat of death or torture. At least we don’t have that issue in Australia to the degree that other cultures have. Anyway, I will put my 2 cents worth in now, from psychological, experiential and sociological persepctives.


You’re right, Mr Summit, that there needs to more than theoretical knowledge imparted for positive change to occur in this area. It’s not just about ignorance but attitudes and underlying beliefs and they take the longest to budge. From experience, learning empathy can bring about a lasting change in attitude but as mentioned, this may take a while. It requires people to either: experience hardships that LGBT people endure, then make the connection and feel compassion for those affected, OR, to undergo practical exercises in workshops that involve role playing or feeling what it’s like to be rejected then linking that in with stats re predjudice against LGBT individuals. (I saw the latter work remarkably well for a woman who had no idea how difficult life could be for her LGBT colleagues and she was a changed person after doing a powerful exercise in a workshop. Mind you, she wasn’t homophobic to begin with, just oblivious as a lot of people are unless it affects them personally. Sadly, we live in a culture of apathy and that doesn’t help things). It’s worth noting, that not everyone can learn to empathise or have compassion. Some people lack the inner workings to do that. The good news however is that most people who are in touch with their humanness and emotions can learn.


Unless issues affect people either personally or concern those individuals they care about, they don’t tend to care much. If it’s a faceless group or people that are ‘strangers’, the care factor often remains at zero. I think the media is partly to blame for this as we are bombarded by so many painful and difficult images, they can be hard to deal with. We either have to shut off from them or become desensitised. Neither helps those affected by the issues however. And the other thing is that our individualistic culture has lost sight of the fact that we are all connected, or one body (and not just within the church), so if one person hurts in the community, we all hurt. If we were mindful of that truth, the focus would be a lot more community-focused rather than apathetic.


It’s good we’re having this discussion. I hope others will join in here too.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
October 12, 2010, 20:30

I think there are many contributors to the current state of affairs, all have made some valid points thus far.


At the end of the day, people need to make their own mind up.


I got together with a past friend (who had disowned me a while before) some time ago and we went over scriptures. We discussed them, consulted his bible, his concordance etc. Even though he admitted I made very good arguments regarding every one of those he brought up (very politely too), that he could not say I was wrong, he could not change his view that I was evil and going to hell.


I responded to him by comparing him to a cult, choosing fragments of scripture to suit his own bias. He was horrified but I challenged him to say he did not do it. He nodded and drove off.

Perhaps religious aspects/sections of the community may make a change of position on GLBTI issues a little more challenging.???????????????


I do think we all need to do our best to educate etc and hopefully see some great changes of attitude which will influence many aspects of our community and society

but let us be realistic too, some people will not change their views because they just don’t want to.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
October 12, 2010, 21:20

Hi oooooo


Yes at the end of the day, there’s free choice for all. And choosing to consider another’s view requires openness and effort. Questioning one’s position is often not be a comfortable place to be and all too hard for some. It can be much easier to cling doggedly to one’s beliefs without ever allowing them to be challenged.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
October 12, 2010, 23:41

I think there are many contributors to the current state of affairs, all have made some valid points thus far.


At the end of the day, people need to make their own mind up.


I got together with a past friend (who had disowned me a while before) some time ago and we went over scriptures. We discussed them, consulted his bible, his concordance etc. Even though he admitted I made very good arguments regarding every one of those he brought up (very politely too), that he could not say I was wrong, he could not change his view that I was evil and going to hell.


I responded to him by comparing him to a cult, choosing fragments of scripture to suit his own bias. He was horrified but I challenged him to say he did not do it. He nodded and drove off.

Perhaps religious aspects/sections of the community may make a change of position on GLBTI issues a little more challenging.???????????????


I do think we all need to do our best to educate etc and hopefully see some great changes of attitude which will influence many aspects of our community and society

but let us be realistic too, some people will not change their views because they just don’t want to.


Querido OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (See? I just upgraded your user name. Capitalization AND an Exclamation Mark. You’re Welcome! :bigsmile: ),


While I hear all that (and agree with much of it), might I make a suggestion?


I think what is affecting your friend is less a religious issue and more something much more earthly: pride. Pride is a powerful force for good. It reminds us that we have worth. It helps us face a dehumanizing society and not lose sight of our morals or values. But it can also be a stumbling block and for some a cage.


It seems to me that what holds your friend back is not his religious convictions as much as it is inability to admit that he was wrong, that he misread scripture, and that his own prejudices have been called out.


Yours in Christ,


Raul



oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
October 15, 2010, 19:46

Hi Raul

thanks for the upgrade


yes pride is certainly part of it

and although not exclusively, many christians, particularly pentecostal and charismatic christians, seem prone to the pride bug in a big way


but we can only try


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