Thanks Meg. I couldn’t agree more.

I personally found my counselling studies to be more God-like than the church, facilitating me to truly apply loving principles which the church had been trying to beat into me for years. Within the counselling school there was true acceptance and realness and I saw myself as God sees me, learning to embrace my limitations and make them work for me. I was inspired from that position of enlightened weakness to naturally become a better person rather than being guilted into it. I guess you could say my weaknesses became my strengths.

Rabid womble, I loved the church more than I loved myself. They were closer to me than my own family. And they loved me while I was doing things their way and then cast me aside when I stood up to them, like they did with so many others. I mourned for them for years and searched high and low to find a suitable place of worship and couldn’t find one. And then I discovered f2b. Coming to this site has facilitated healing, community, like-mindedness and acceptance; basically all the things the church has not been interested in providing.

I’m quite comfortable with the fact that the church does not have a monopoly on healing or God. And the sacred is everywhere. Thank God for that or else I might have given up long ago like the church did.

Hi Ant

Great to see you here again. Your input is greatly appreciated and the above is an excellent comment.

Yes, wandering in the desert will certainly test and develop an ability to listen more to one’s spirit. That’s what I’ve experienced anyway. Would I have chosen it? No – of course not! Who wants to suffer? And yet I am glad for my heart being broken open so I can relate to those the church has turned it’s back on or forgotten. If that hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t have the compassion or acceptance of various disenfranchised others that I have now. That’s what Jesus was about, ministering to the broken, the forgotten, the down trodden, and outcasts. And that’s where my focus is drawn so I think that’s the most important one.

I hope this is OK, pingtimeout, continuing from your initial post with this?

I too heard a lot of misinformation about other faiths and practices from the pulpit and it was based on fear not love. And the ‘us and them’ you mentioned I found to be anything but subtle. I agree it is not Christian or in fact truly spiritual to hold an ‘us and them’ attitude. It comes from primitive times of needing to fight and defend against anything that might threaten survival. However, I believe we now live in a more secure and aware age and are able to discern things in more complex ways. And if we are really secure in ourselves, we don’t need to speak in an ignorant or defamatory way about those who have different beliefs. We are afterall all connected and, I believe, all cherished by the creator.

Yes, Jesus moved outside of the current church and culture of his day. He was a rebel but never arrogant. He wasn’t taking orders from the synagogue or any man and seemed to regularly upset church authorities. The things he did were contraversial but always deeply loving. That’s the person I want to be, motivated by love and courage. And I think that is more likely to occur outside of church than in it. I hope you’re right, Ant. It would be nice to think that the church is changing for the better, also being broken open to include all kinds of people who were excluded before. I’m just not so sure that it’s the right place for me anymore, that’s all.

I think we can safely judge a person, ministry, practice or environment by the fruit that grows. And so if people thrive and produce good fruit wherever they are, then something really good must be happening in their lives, even if it’s different to popular opinion or what we think they should be doing.

Blessings to all,

Ann Maree

a belated hi from me pingtimeout

great that you found us and thanks for sharing your story.

it seems like you are a regulary internet user….is this correct.

Hi everyone,

I’ve only been here a few days but I have to say this is a very supportive and friendly space. Having worked in moderating or administrating online spaces for about 14 years I appreciate the hard work, both from the founders/admins and also the regulars here to build that. 🙂 This is a composite reply.

deafant (and Ann Maree) – The “us vs them” at the church I was in was very, very apparent. In retrospect it seems ridiculous that they were presumptuous enough to believe they were the only church through which God was working. I liked this quote particularly, it reflects my own “unlearning” too:

People are people regardless of what we believe and we all deserve to be treated with love, kindness and dignity and we all have the right to occupy time and space and believe what we want to and how we want to practice it. When we get away from these basic understandings we move away from the teachings of Christ which focused in these basic things.

Ann Maree – that’s no problem. I think it’s a natural tendency of forum posts to randomly dip in and out of different topics, it’s all about building community. I pretty much agreed with your entire post (10:57am). Re: other faiths… we were taught songs in Children’s Church which actively mocked other faiths. Pretty sad that they considered that necessary, really.

mobileguy – Yes, the control thing is a huge problem where it exists. I do know there are churches where that really isn’t a problem – the whole idea of telling people what to think rather than letting them be guided by the Spirit in their own path doesn’t allow people to mature or develop for themselves, and I think a truly mature church can only be strengthened by this process – it’s sad that some of their leaders don’t recognise this. I agree with your point on trust – applies to my situation too.

Anthony: Hi and thanks 🙂 Yeah I’ve been on the internet since 1995 (and other online networks for even longer). The nickname is unique for here, I thought it best to keep the various parts of my life separate for now – I hope that is not interpreted as a lack of trust, but more just I’m aware that people from my old church, my work or even my other internet pursuits could be reading.

Ann Maree: What happened at my church was interesting and from what I’ve heard typical of “megachurches” in that the main church hierarchy had lost control of the edges and a level of “middle management” had arisen which had very much their own aims to pursue. The youth group was operating within any regular definition of a cult, and the church pretty much had no idea how far gone it was until the end.

deafant (and Ann Maree) – The “us vs them” at the church I was in was very, very apparent. In retrospect it seems ridiculous that they were presumptuous enough to believe they were the only church through which God was working. I liked this quote particularly, it reflects my own “unlearning” too:

Thanks for your reply pingtimeout, I had read your story with empathy and identified with the elements that were present in my own experience. It was a confusing time for me when I left the church not knowing what to believe or or what to think. I had to begin a slow process of unlearning which I am still doing – I still get caught in fundamentalistic thought patterns even 10 years down the track, I still remember choruses that run through my mind as if yesterday and the problem is that these choruses often no longer represent what I believe. I have substituted my own words at times but that has been limited in its success.

I am struck by Jesus’ itinerant ministry he had no regular church and there is not a lot of record of him attending the synagogue – of course this could be assumed knowledge of the time so I cant say that he didnt attend the synagogue regularly but that does not seem to be the the focus of the gospels. It seems to me that the focus was that of Jesus and people regardless of who they were and he didnt discriminate between believers and non believers. The focus is on individual spirituality, not collective worship. As afar as I am aware Jesus does not give any instruction to regularly attend a church or synagogue.

I dont mean to say its not right to attend church but I do think its a sign of spiritual maturity when we arent co-dependent on a church – just as its good not to be co-dependent in relationships. If our faith is dependent on being around like minded people then we are missing the point in my opinion. Like our faith shouldnt fall apart if we cant make it to church in Sunday. That said the company of like minded people does strengthen us, there is no doubt about that.

Pingtimeout I really admire your determination to speak to new people on a regular basis its not something that many of us are comfortable with in this day and age of suspicion of strangers and lack of local communities. I appreciate you taking the time to tell your story