Sure. Lets just pray I don’t put my foot in it.

Nope, I don’t think you’ve put your foot in it Sandy … very well argued 🙂

Hi Sandy

You said: “The definition of gay or lesbian has at its core sexual/romantic/eros attraction to someone of the same sex and it is this quality that opposes the heterosexual norm and in doing so makes us “different”.”



I’m sorry but maybe I’m a bit thick.. I don’t understand how we are any different to heteros….. but maybe that’s what you mean – that we are not different? I understand you saying we are different because we are same sex attracted but otherwise isn’t love just love? Don’t we just experience all the types of love that any person of any orientation experiences?

Of course I agree we should have the same rights as everyone else, and yes, we are a long way from being treated equal to heteros because of that heteronormative consciousness you mentioned.

Again you said: “The acknowledgement of eros love between two people of the same sex is the foundation of gay marriage rights which was why it was so bizzare to see it trampled in a paper designed to encourage gay marriage. Despite what Nettleton postulates the reason that most people in Western countries marry is for the public acknowledgement of their eros love for each other. We want that same right for ourselves.”

Ann Maree

Hi Sandy

Thanks for saying I’m not thick!! 🙂

So if I’m right, I think you’ve been focusing on the huge social and political impacts of being in our community and having same sex relationships. I agree, the ramifications of same sex relating is enormous. Many hetero people don’t realise that there’s a constant process of negotiation and difficult decision making in all kinds of social settings when you’re LGBTIQ. i.e. Holding hands in public is not likely to be premeditated about to the same degree by a hetero person because it’s not questioned by our heteronormative society. And in terms of coming out, I think many don’t know that it can be a process that takes many years, if not a lifetime. It’s usually not just a one-off event. For instance, I came out to immediate family and a couple of close friends gradually over a period of years from 2000 onwards. And yet every time I’ve moved jobs, I’ve had to consider whether to come out or not and how to do this. At one point last year, I didn’t correct the assumption one colleague made that I had a male partner because it was in front of a big group and I wasn’t comfortable talking about such a private and potentially risky subject in front of a group I didn’t know well. Later at the Christmas function, I chose to come out to this person when we were alone and it took her 3 x to hear me using the pronoun ‘she’ before she twigged that I was with a female partner. In the end, she wasn’t negative about it but the process required me to be confident about repeating myself in the face of an uncertain outcome. On a more positive note, coming out to another person, a work friend, on the same day went well but it was also not easy. Although I was fairly confident of what her response would be, there was still a sense of risk, of the unknown. These are the things that heteros never have to consider, much less stress about. All in all it’s not an easy road to be in our community and the more we can redress the imbalances the better.

I agree that to deeply love and be loved are human needs that transcend orientation, history, background etc. And so it seems pointless to me that people are dividing up the different types of love, indicating that our cause can’t be properly acknowledged unless we only promote those cookie cutter, long term, monogamous relationships that have been deemed wholesome by some boring old Christians and others. Oh don’t get me wrong, I like long term relationships and am myself a bit boring. I just believe that not everyone has to stick to those rules to be totally acceptable and I resent that the cookie cutter is repeatedly held up as a standard. Like we should have to conform to some heteronormative model (that usually doesn’t work anyway) to be accepted. I find it offensive.

And I know, avb, that you will say, as you have before, that the wheels of change move slowly, and the church and wider society can only cope with so much at one time. And when it comes to advancing our rights in the church, the promotion of long term, loving relationships within our community rather than promiscuous ones, is the more palatable position for conservative types. And despite what I’ve said above, I do understand the need to strategise and apply change in stages that others can manage and be part of. However it doesn’t mean I can’t be angry.

Ok so that’s my rant. Sandy, you’ve got me fired up now too! Actually it doesn’t take much – I’m quite passionate about these types of things all on my own. I hope no one is offended by my comments. I’m just frustrated by the hoops I perceive we have to jump through when life is already difficult enough.

Ann Maree

Yes very true. Experience is an amazing teacher. There are many things I wouldn’t really know if it weren’t for actually living them.

I was really encouraged to read this coming from a Baptist Pastor. Just fantastic!! I strongly support gay marriage.

Murray, I have a theory that older gay folk can be (not always) among the most lonely people in our society. This is why I have been so encouraged to read about the circle of friends you have there.

I am one who is rapidly approaching this age group. In my reading today from Hebrews 11:13 , it said “All these people were still living by faith when they died.” Now hopefully I am a long way off from that yet, but it is a real challenge to “live by faith” and stay really close to the Lord as time goes on. I want to one of those who do.

Then it says”They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance” I know the context here is they were looking forward to Christ and His coming. But I realized we may not always see the answers to our prayers in our lifetime. Answers to prayers for many in scripture did not come for many hundreds of years in some cases, but they did come. God is faithful. Let’s be encouraged.

(Sorry if this is a bit of a digression from the thread here)