Yeah… will keep talking to Steve about it… at least when I walk I will be walking for those in my life who have taken their lives, those who have left the church because they couldn’t become straight and for the future of Gay rights in the realms of Christianity.

I’d like to hear what everyone felt at the Freedom2be march at the Gay Mardi Gras. Smile. I know it was big… I know that everyone would be emotional. Hmmmmm smile.

Smile.

Can I just say an all-round “ouch!” on behalf of AGO. If I was asked to state my views on homosexuality they would almost replicate what is in that first post and then some. It seems I have missed this post being in America or maybe I didn’t notice it before but I’m a little offended actually.

Saying that I also have to say that their attitude towards Gay people wanting to accept Christ and be part of the family… somewhere in the bible talks about blood on their hands for rejecting us… hmmmm there has been a number of deaths amongst our christian gay brothers and sisters throughout Australia. People overseeing them regardless of their ignorance are responsible for them.

Of course ignorance is the enemy here and people acting in ignorance can do some serious damage. Most of us here have experienced this first hand. Only yesterday I was “welcomed” back to my church by some little old ladies who said “Oh…shes back….I thought we had gotten rid of that sort.” 🙄 I have known people who have suicided over this issue, I have counciled at their hospital beds, I watched a young woman commit suicide, I was raped, I am caring for a six year old girl who’s mother is in jail for murder I know about pain and death and the terrible things people can do to each other. Who is really at fault here? To state the obvious people act in ignorance because they are ignorant. Of course there are homophobic people out there but most do damage through ignorance that they don’t really mean to inflict. As a mariginalised group, disillusioned with God’s people and personally affected I can understand how you come to the conclusion above Craig.

I reject your assertion that it is acceptable to God to for lack of a better term ‘practise homosexuality’. I believe that you are practising and preaching false doctrine by suggesting to others that this is ok to God. That does not mean I reject YOU. You know what Craig? Fundamentally you are not a homosexual, a man, a brother, a son or whatever other label society places on you. Fundamentally you are a child of God, plain, simple and absolutly glorious! I love you because you are a child of God. This is the distinction that AGO is making. They do not reject you, they reject the false doctrine that you believe, that is outside of your true nature as a child of God.

I think its horrendous that you can be so unloving towards conservative Christians who council gay and lesbian people that homosexual practise is sinful. As Anthony’s story suggests its not one person, one event that causes a person to suicide. Alot of the time its a lack of understanding and social pressue that causes gay people to do fundamentally dumb things like get married, and then you open a whole other can of worms, deciet, identity crisis etc that causes people to wish they no longer lived. Is it the individuals fault? Not really. Is it conservative Christians fault? Not really. Do not presume to take the moral high ground here, your comments above vindicate conservative Christains in the death of people, basically you are accusing them of, at best, manslaughter. By that definition i should be in jail today. No person is responsible for what the bible says Craig, if you don’t like it your going to have to take it up with a higher authority. We can debate theology until the cows come home and perhaps you will hear Anthony and I do so, however convincingly on the apostacy link. Please join in if you feel inclined if you are going to accuse me of taking some part in other people’s death because of my beliefs then I would very much like the oppitunity to explain to you exactly what I believe and why, ancient greek and hebrew inclusive.

Compassion, forgiveness and tollerance are all attributes you should show Christian people, conservative or progressive, gay or straight. Your comments show me that you are ignorant to the fact that conservative Christians really do love gay people while not tollerating their sexual activity because they are Children of God. Don’t you think its wonderful that AGO loves this totally awesome, huge part of you, if it can even be called a part as it eminates from your entire being. So they don’t love the way you act out your sexual peferance. In comparison to what you have in common, the love and respect you can show each other. I wonder if that tiny difference really matters…

(All comments are made in reference to AGO’s official stance on homosexuality and comments made about Anthony Venn Brown, I am not talking about societal responce in general)

Of course ignorance is the enemy here and people acting in ignorance can do some serious damage. Most of us here have experienced this first hand. Only yesterday I was “welcomed” back to my church by some little old ladies who said “Oh…shes back….I thought we had gotten rid of that sort.” 🙄 I have known people who have suicided over this issue, I have counciled at their hospital beds, I watched a young woman commit suicide, I was raped, I am caring for a six year old girl who’s mother is in jail for murder I know about pain and death and the terrible things people can do to each other. Who is really at fault here? To state the obvious people act in ignorance because they are ignorant. Of course there are homophobic people out there but most do damage through ignorance that they don’t really mean to inflict. As a mariginalised group, disillusioned with God’s people and personally affected I can understand how you come to the conclusion above Craig.

I reject your assertion that it is acceptable to God to for lack of a better term ‘practise homosexuality’. I believe that you are practising and preaching false doctrine by suggesting to others that this is ok to God. That does not mean I reject YOU. You know what Craig? Fundamentally you are not a homosexual, a man, a brother, a son or whatever other label society places on you. Fundamentally you are a child of God, plain, simple and absolutly glorious! I love you because you are a child of God. This is the distinction that AGO is making. They do not reject you, they reject the false doctrine that you believe, that is outside of your true nature as a child of God.

I think its horrendous that you can be so unloving towards conservative Christians who council gay and lesbian people that homosexual practise is sinful. As Anthony’s story suggests its not one person, one event that causes a person to suicide. Alot of the time its a lack of understanding and social pressue that causes gay people to do fundamentally dumb things like get married, and then you open a whole other can of worms, deciet, identity crisis etc that causes people to wish they no longer lived. Is it the individuals fault? Not really. Is it conservative Christians fault? Not really. Do not presume to take the moral high ground here, your comments above vindicate conservative Christains in the death of people, basically you are accusing them of, at best, manslaughter. By that definition i should be in jail today. No person is responsible for what the bible says Craig, if you don’t like it your going to have to take it up with a higher authority. We can debate theology until the cows come home and perhaps you will hear Anthony and I do so, however convincingly on the apostacy link. Please join in if you feel inclined if you are going to accuse me of taking some part in other people’s death because of my beliefs then I would very much like the oppitunity to explain to you exactly what I believe and why, ancient greek and hebrew inclusive.

Compassion, forgiveness and tollerance are all attributes you should show Christian people, conservative or progressive, gay or straight. Your comments show me that you are ignorant to the fact that conservative Christians really do love gay people while not tollerating their sexual activity because they are Children of God. Don’t you think its wonderful that AGO loves this totally awesome, huge part of you, if it can even be called a part as it eminates from your entire being. So they don’t love the way you act out your sexual peferance. In comparison to what you have in common, the love and respect you can show each other. I wonder if that tiny difference really matters…

(All comments are made in reference to AGO’s official stance on homosexuality and comments made about Anthony Venn Brown, I am not talking about societal responce in general)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to write… yeah it would be so nice to just be me and not “the homosexual one”…. I don’t have any hatred to people who misguide our brothers/sister who end up committing suicide… what upsets me is that the bible does not take kindly to people who kill themselves… I have a huge dilema when it comes to committing own death, it’s just so wrong. I also understand that we are limited by our humanity that sometimes we can never intervene against our brother or sister’s choice in ending their lives. I’m not saying that God condones us but its alot better than saying that God hates us which is not true. I can only do what is natural for me and that is to love a man… to me, to love a woman is so unnatural for me… I’m not saying that because I am repulsed… just that I have no connection with women as I do with men. A friend said that he’d hire a prositute just so that I can be cured – I doubt it… I probably end up playing cards and just chatting about life in general or being educated in how to prositute my body for $$$. I supposed I could function sexually with woman for procreation purposes or the sexual act… but I wouldn’t be able to connect. Does anyone understand what I mean?

I know Im a child of God and that’s my real identity… why can’t we be accepted on that ground. I don’t ask a married couple if they are having sex so why do they feel they have the right to ask if I am having sex. Really its no ones business eh? Hmmmmmmm

Paul speaks about if we are to be celibated – that’s good. But its better that we “marry” than to burn. I have sexual needs. I’m trapped because I can’t relate to woman as I am with male. I’m wondering why I haven’t heard from God that what I am doing is very wrong. The bible is not 100% clear… and yeah ok I’m reading that book Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homsexuality by John Boswell… puh.. heavy reading!

So many Gay people believe that you can’t be a Christian and Gay. My problem is that I am Gay and I’m also a child of God. God has never let me go… there one time when I told God to leave because I still had “homosexual” feelings… and I firmly believed that I turned my back on him… it was the worse feeling I have ever felt in my life… I felt like my heart was ripped out, I couldn’t stop crying I’ve had breakdowns but this was worse… ever watched that movie when Superman goes into the chamber and he becomes “normal” – It felt like that… I cried and cried inside… can you imagined the excitement I got 24 hours later while driving to work discovering that God never left me… I remembered feeling that “something”, it was a strange thing that hung out with me for the past 24 hours and realising it was God, never left me… that was the worse saddest moment in my christian life and the extreme happiest time… it was like “oh my god, it was you all this time” I actually recognised the feeling… when I was so little… growing up… it was that knowing someone was watching me… that was the same feeling I had and I recognised God as if God was wearing a different set of aftershave… it was just so incredible. I honestly thought I was going to die alone without God. I was so scared. I was in a relationship at the time and I was too scared to tell my partner… infact I don’t recall seeing him… because I was so deeply depressed. I remember him asking me if I was ok… I just couldn’t talk… I was so down.

Where can a “christian” who is struggling with their sexuality go… to talk about it, to get affirmation that God still loves them… I was fine as a non-sexual person till I became a Christian…. no one warned me that when you get a spiritual hit (convertion)… your sex drive also gets a hit too… switched on! I would have said to God, no thanks and spared myself the grief (seriously I wouldn’t miss being a child of God).

I reason that my sexuality is not an issue with God on the grounds that God’s grace is sufficent for me… and while I live in this imperfect body that’s Deaf, riddled with ADHD and only likes men. My life is so short that I am so sure that I will get to heaven and all will be revealed to me… and that I will have a perfect body up there… smile. I acknowledge God’s healing I gained in my life and am grateful even though I was not healed of Deafness my ADHD and Gay orientation…. God has choosen not to do anything yet… maybe the best is when I get to heaven where I won’t be a slave to my personal limitation/humanity. Who knows?

Anyone want to add something? I guess it’s kinda my person decision to have this belief or to verify… so I live by my interpretation… or my understanding. I have asked God and I have not had any conviction that what I am is wrong… infact I experienced the opposite once I was able to release myself from guilt and shame. Hmmmm once I stopped being so critical about msyself because it was affecting my relationship with God and the people around me.

well perhaps, when i say my bit i will be shamed by my ignorance but here goes ……everyone else is expressing their opinion, why not me?? I say that in gest not as an attack. sorry for my poor humour skills LOL

i have read through everyone’s chat on this issue and it is indeed interesting reading.

In my years as being a christian I have come to realise above all that God/Jesus is much bigger than any one person, church, denomination or planet. From my understanding of the Bible and God, He is spirit, and we are spirit. His spirit wishes to commune with our spirit. That is the bottom line when it comes to personal relationship with the Almighty. Yes Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. No question according to the Word of God.

What is interesting when i have done biblical studies (bible college and inchurch studies) is that when i reverted to the original meaning/language of words, scriptures, and passages and discovered a discrepancy with the english translation and or the teaching of that passage I was mostly asked to be quiet. I went to an AOG bible college and another independent Denomination/movement bible college closely alligned to AOG. That could be in part due to the particular lecturer or it could have and sometimes was a tad bigger than that. I have found, and I was guilty of this to some degree when I use to be a Pastor/preacher, that preaching and teaching is still curbed to our personal experience, biases, predjudices etc. After all, the majority of cults have used partial scriptures to substantiate their movement/faith. Indeed different movements/denominations have been started with the same influence.

An individual may get a particular ‘revelation’ about a passage of scripture (which may be valid) and they run with it and their whole cell group, church, denomination is based around that one thing. Also there are churches that focus on one main stream idea, whether that be help ministries, prosperity, the prophetic , evangelism or whatever. All may in their own context be right on in what God means by that scripture,

What i have also found is that much of the bible, is cultural when relating to particular passages and ‘commands’. In my studies, thus far, the parts that mention homosexuality are taken out of context, particularly when you compare the english translation of the bible to the original language in either the greek, aramaic, or hebrew.

If one wanted to be predanctic, one could say that the AOG (which i was involved in) and other movements/denominations that i was involved in or associated with, are dealing with homosexuality unfairly, as there as just as many if not more passages that denounce women’s roles in public ministry life on various capacities. Is this not nowadays regarded as a cultural issue???? and not a biblical command??????

Furthermore, such churches ride the pony all the way to the market pushing the prosperity wagon, asking for offerings etc to get their new multi million dollar building air conditioned yet within their walls are families who have no car, fatherless children that don’t even go to school with shoes on their feet or lunch in their bag. They remain fatherless, yet the men in the church all gather in their mens meetings and praise the lord but pay no attention to young boys who will one day become men. The bible talks more about such issues as these than about women’s roles or men and men attractions,yet they major on the minors.

I resigned from being on staff at my last church 4 years ago. Since then i have received many phone calls and visits from people desperate for help and love and understanding. I was asked for advise from a member of the staff to help him find solutions for this homeless man he had in the church. “All the shelters are full, what will i do with him?” was the question. How sad i said, he replied indeed they are all full, a bad time of year obviously. No i said that is not what is sad with this situation, he asked what i meant. I replied – you are a church of over 500 people and you can not find one individual or family to house this man for any length of time. That is what is sad. I then said that is pathetic. I responded by saying bring him around to my place. Now what i am about to say is not meant to make me sound wonderful, certainly not. (I am a sole parent raising my three children alone.) At that point i already had two other teenagers living with us, one thrown out of his home and the other willingly left his home full of violence and drugs. I was receiving no money for them and i never complained, i did it because they needed a roof and some understanding, i had a roof and understanding, but no money. So this gentlemen was brought around to my place. He had many issues, and kept me up to all hours of the night, and i was also studying and still do study full time at university with 2 part time jobs. With alot of prayer with this man and for him and a small amount of direction but not cohesion this man soon had a breakthrough in the legal arena and miracles of miracles was reunited with his family, although apprehensively. but nevertheless a miracle given the circumstances.

I ask you where was the church? Unfortunately with what is far too common and I know from much personal experience, they do not wish to get their hands dirty,do not want to deal with real life issues, and want to live in their dream worlds. Hedonistic society at its best!

Are all people, leaders in churches so uncaring? not at all. Are the leaders and people in that particular church nice people, sure they are. Am I perfect, nowhere near it. Is prosperity evil? no way. Is the prophetic evil? I hope not cos i love it! Is everything suppose to be about mercy ministries? not in the slightest.

My longwinded response to this topic boils down to this – God wants us to love Him and love others. (bottom line)

Church is suppose to be about family and army. We all have different functions, different gifts and skills that God places with us. And yes we do have a real enemy.

My soapbox is that as individuals and as churches and denominations we are to develop a well rounded community, able to deal effectively in accordance with the guiding of our Holy Spirit combating the evil and misery that is thrust upon individuals and to glorify God in all we do and say.

Isolating people or ourselves is not the way to do it. Does one individual person or church/denomination have all the answers? Only God Almighty has.

I think if we knew what our spirits were saying (not our souls) and what God as spirit was saying things would be significantly different to the way they are currently. But ofcoarse there is the human component and for whatever weird reason God thinks that us humans can do it, we can bring Christ to the world, and glorify Him. go figure LOL

The issue of AOG or any other denomination and their stance with homosexuality, as wrong as i personaly believe it is, is not the biggest issue. Yes it is terrible and frankly inexcuseable that people are committing suicide over the rejection either from themselves, their families, their church for whatever reason.

I believe, as hard as it is at times, if we make a concerted effort to major on the majors then God will gently show us how to deal the minors. A wise missionary man from Africa once told me about a man who had given his life to Jesus. This man had 6 wives. The missionary did not tell him to choose one and get rid of the other 5. He allowed Holy Spirit to contend with that, He just discipled him in the ways of God, taught him how much God loved him and that he had a purpose.

Simple huh!!!!

Pointing the finger does very little in grand scheme of things. Yes this is an issue that we all face with at some point as gay individuals. Yes it does hurt. i am losing friends because of it.

I just encourage us all including myself to be led by the spirit of God and not ourselves or the words of church doctrine.

Be blessed and fruitful everyone

Just a quick note on all this cultural stuff. Homosexuality was (dare I use the word) rampant in Greek and Roman culture throughout history. The Greeks saw women as inferior so used to have sex with each other as superior beings insted of degrading themselves to mate only with women. People suggest that simply because the modern day term homosexuality was not coined at the time the bible was written then it didnt exist. This is false. Paul obviously knew what homosexuality was even if it was not encompassed by the terms we use today.

Yes the bible speaks strongly on womens roles in the church and in society. Woman is the helper, this means that it is not right that she should take on ministry roles in the church where she is in the position to teach adult men. Woman is the helper, she came from mans side not his foot. This does not mean that women are not equal to men only that they have a different role. It is sad that our modern society deems sucsess in terms of money making, authority and leadership. Feminism has done few favours for the church and while they helped bring about equality that was desprertly needed they did so on ungodly terms that destroyed womens role as God wishes it. Any church that allows women to preach is in contrast to the word of God and has certianly been ifluenced by culture. Just because alot of churches have this wrong does not permit anyone to throw it all in with the idea that because a church has part A wrong part B will be wrong also. Just because churches promote women in ministry does not mean that their views on homosexuality are wrong.

I suggest that many churchs have in fact been influenced by culture, more specifically the gay movement. It does have an adgenda as a whole, this is not to suggest that every gay person does, only that the ‘organisation’ of people as a whole do. Like feminism the gay movement has brought about necessasary change both outside of and within the church. Homosexual people are no longer criminals and help can be found for this struggle within many churches and christian organisations. These are good things that have resulted from the education that the gay movement has given us. Yet like feminism it goes too far. It normalises this behaviour, promotes it and even goes as far to say that God promotes it! This is culture and the church should not bend to culture at the cost of the word.