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AOG Official Statement on Homosexuality

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oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
June 7, 2007, 11:23

very true Sandy. But i question, what is the Word of God from the perspective of how the original language has been translated. I do not doubt the commandments etc but translations leave little to be desired as they represent (in some cases not all) those opinions of those that did the translation. Totally true that what we nowadays call homosexuality was very common in ancient greek and roman times. From my understanding of the bible and ancient and modern day culture orgies and the like were not then nor are they now acceptable as godly practice for believers or anyone else for that matter.

My point i was trying to make is that so much is majored on such issues as sexuality (not that it is all ok and acceptable) when there are true and desperate needs out there everywhere that the vast majority of churches ignore. Two wrongs do not make a right but in my understanding and stance in life I need to make sure i am doing and living the best way i know how to according to His word, trying my best to be led by the Spirit of God. Holy Spirit’s job is to correct us when we are in sin, not people that have planks in their own eyes as big as mine. There is a place for correction but in my view you really have had to hear from God to act on instigating it. There are numerous situations throughout church history that people have rebuked and worse those they thought were in evil – catholic church on Luther, Luther on the baptists, baptists and everyone else on pentecostals, pentecostals on prosperity, etc etc etc Toronto Blessing (terrible name for it) was condemned for a great deal of time yet now largely adopted as a blessing/move of God. With revelation comes understanding and acceptance over time.


The bible is full of apparent contradictions and when one considers cultural aspects i think it is clear that even God loves to push the boundaries somewhat. Should women be able to teach and preach in church over men, well personally i think so, they have much to say that is of great worth.

After all, God used a donkey to speak to a ‘man of God’ used a murderer and adulterer to lead his jewish people, called a christian hater to minister the gospel to the world ( and was by his own confession not without sin after his conversion), had women start and minister in churches in their home towns,


But hey,

when all is said and done we are directly accountable for our own lives and any discrepancies any of us have with each other’s ideas and theology will be washed away when we are in glory and the truth will finally come out in full.


Bless you all



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
June 7, 2007, 13:10

But hey,

when all is said and done we are directly accountable for our own lives and any discrepancies any of us have with each other’s ideas and theology will be washed away when we are in glory and the truth will finally come out in full.


(i still cant quote cry )


I agree with this statement………..and the fact that people wth planks are pointing out our planks too often and i dont just mean homosexuality.



frogger
 
Joined in 2005
June 7, 2007, 13:19

I am genuinely shocked Sandy by the speech you just gave on women in the church etc. I think you are coming from a biblically unsound doctrine. It scares me to think what kind of message you are expressing toward others. It scares me to think that you have such conviction, that you would pass this on to others.


Cultural issues are a very strong reason to let go of The biblical stance on homosexuality. They are not the only reason, they are part of the reason. As is, culturally having women not speak in the church.


I am shocked and find myself quite emotional that you would preach such things to anyone…. I shall be discussing this at length at a later time, but am unable to respond at present.


Look out for my lengthy position on these topics.


In becoming legalistic, we must consider all topics. Do you therefore not eat crayfish, do you cut your hair on the side of your head. Do you believe wisdom is good or bad? Do you consider all of these truth and therefore follow them? Legalism can never end. Truth always sets us free. Not binds us further and further


Pocket Bible Reference 1


Who You Should Kill


–Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21


–Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9,


Ex 21:15


–Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11


–psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11,


Ex 22:18.


–Those who do not believe in Jesus (parable).


Luke 19:27.


–Those who work on the Sabbath. Ex 35:2


Moses kills a gentile for this. Num 15:32-36.


–Those who are accused by at least two people


of wickedness. Deut 17:6.


–The children and babies of enemies. Num 31:17,


Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29.


–Adulterers. Lev 20:10.


–Homosexuals. Lev 20:13.


–A woman who is not a virgin when married.


Deut 22:13-21.


–Those who are careless with murderous livestock.


Exodus 21:29.


Who You Should Hate


–Those who eat crab or shrimp. Lev 11:10.


–Those who sacrifice an animal to God that


has a blemish. Deut 17:1.


–Those who remarry the same person after


divorce. Deut 24:4.


–Homosexuals. Lev 18:22.


–Those who are proud. Prov 16:5.


–A woman who wears pants. Deut 22:5.


–A man with long hair (Jesus?). 1Cor 11:14


contradicts Num 6:5, 1Sam 1:11, Jug 13:5.


–those who call others fools Mat 5:22


Should we still do this stuff?


–All OT laws still apply in NT. Matt 5:17-19


Contradicted in part by Mat 5:38-39


Doomsday Cult


–Jesus/Bible claims the end is near + in our past


Mark9:1 Mat16:27-28 Luke 9:26-27 Luke 21:32


Mat 24:34 John 5:25-29 James 5:8 1John 2:18


1Pet 4:7 Mal 4


Family and Political Values


— Jesus says to hate/abandon your family


Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.


–Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.


Mat 23:9


–Jesus says to honor your parents. Mat 19:19.


–No families in heaven. Mark 12:25.


–Don’t marry 1cor7:1,8,27, Remarry Mat 5:32


–Jesus/NT says to pay taxes and obey the


government. Rom 13:1-7, 2Peter 2:10,


Mat 22:17-21, Mark 12:17, Luke 20:25.


–Jesus is against public prayer. Mat 6:5-6.


–Rich can’t be Christian. Matt 19:24.


–Give all to poor. Luke 18:22.


–Lot impregnates his daughters after God kills


his wife, then honored. Gen 19. 2Peter 2:7


–a thing is not alive until breathing. Gen 2:7.


–Punishment for killing fetus is fine Ex 21,22-25.


–Women are worth less and should submit Eph


5:22-24, Col 3:18, 1Cor 11:5-10, 14:34-35.


–Become eunuchs (castrated) Mat 19:12


–Sodom not destroyed for homosexuality, not


listening to Jesus=greater sin than Sodom’s.


Ez16:49-5, Luke 10:10-12.


–Gay David?1Sam18:1-4,20:3-4,7,41, 2Sam1:25-26


–God makes people gay. Rom 1:26-28.


Mythical Creatures.


–Giants. Gen 6:4, 1Sam. 17:4.


–Ghosts 1Sam 28:8:20


–Demons. Luke 11:14.


— Leviathans. Isaiah 27:1, Job 41:1.


— Dragons. (Revelations).


— Angels. Mat 28:2, Gen 19.


–Unicorns. Isaiah 34:7.-


–Witches/Mediums Ex22:18 Mic5:12 1Sam28:8-20


–Sorcerers. Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7, Ex 8:18.


–Talking Donkeys. Num 23:23-30


— UFOs. Gen 6:4, 2Kings 2:11, Ezek 10


Super Powers and Magic


–A true Christian should be baptized, have faith,


cast out demons, speak in tongues, take up serpents,


be able to heal the sick, and be completely immune


to any poison. Mark 16:16-18.


–A true Christian can perform greater miracles than


Jesus. John 14:12.


–Christians can move mountains and trees by


command. Mat 17:20, 21:21 Mark 11:23 Luke 17:6


–Whatever a man asks of God he will receive Mat 7:7


–all things are possible with God. Mat 19:26.


–God has trouble overcoming iron chariots.


Judges 1:19.


–Jesus uses magic spells. Mark 6:4-5, 7:33-35,


Mark 8:23-25.


–Jesus had limited powers. Mark 6:5


–Sorcerers can do the same magic stuff God does.


Ex 7:22, Ex 8:7.


–Apollonius is just like a Jesus.


Science.


–7 days, firmament, plant (before the sun), sea


creatures, birds, land animals, man and woman


together, Gen 1.


–1 day, man, plants, all other creatures, woman,


knowledge of good and evil given only to a tree at


first, flaming sword Gen 2.


–7,000 year old earth.


–The earth is flat. Mat 4:5-8, Luke 4:5,


Isaiah 11:12, Rev 7:1, Dan 4:10-11


–The sun moves around a stationary Earth and the


moon has its own light. Isaiah 13:10,


Psalm 19:4-5, 1Sam 2:8, 1Chr 16:30,


Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5.


— Pi = 3. 2Chron 4:2, 1King7:23.


–Flood–rainbow Gen9:13, 7 (Gen 7:2) or


2 (Gen 6:19 7:8,9,15) of each animal, lasted 40


(Gen 7:17) or 150 (7:24, 8:3) days, salinity+fish,


Australia’s animals,deadly parasites, dinosaurs,


size+time+feed problem.


— Tower of Bable Linguistics Gen 11.


Pocket Bible Reference 2


Jesus’ Birth


–Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit and was a


product of virgin birth. Mat 1:18-21


–Jesus was conceived by the seed of David


according to the flesh. Rom 1:3


–Heli was the paternal grandfather of Jesus Luke 3:23


–Jacob was the paternal grandfather of Jesus.


Mat 1:16, John 4:5.


Jesus on a Good Day


–love your enemies. Mat 5:43-44.


–golden rule Mat 7:12 Luke 6:31


–Judge not. Mat 7:1


–Consider the lilies Luke 12:27, Mat 6:28


–be like children Mat 18:3.


–give anything asked of you by anyone. Luke 6:30


–turn other cheek Luke 6:29.


–not against me is with me Mark 9:40 Luke 9:50


Jesus on a Bad Day


–not with me is against me Mat 12:30, Luke 11:23


–accommodate the wicked and do not resist


evil. Mat 5:39-45.


–Kill disbeliveers (parable) Luke 19:27.


–wicked get eternal torture of Hell. Mark 9:43-48.


–Fruit tree hatred. Mark 11:13-14,20.


contradicts Mat 21:19-20


–Jesus came to cause strife. Luke 12:51-53,


Mat 10:34.


— Jesus says to hate/abandon your family


Luke 14:26, Mat 10:35-36, Mat 19:29.


–Jesus threatens to kill children Rev 2:23


Seeing God/Jesus


–no one has seen God. John 1:18.


–Jacob saw God’s face. Gen 32:30.


–Moses saw his backside. Ex 33:23.


–God has dinner with Abraham. Gen 18.


–Paul never met Jesus 2Cor 12, Gal 1:11-12


Hopeful Plagiarisms


–Jesus + Elijah do the same thing in the same


words. 1Kings 17, Luke 7.


–Luke + Elijah do the same thing in same


words. Ezek 1:1,4:9,4:14, Acts10:11-14


Miscellaneous Contradictions


–God will punish son for father’s crimes Ex 20:5


–God won’t punish son for father’s crimes.


Ezek 18:20.


–Jesus’ last words all different. Mat 27:46,


Luke 23:46, John 19:30.


–Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James


go to tomb, find guards and boulder which move


after earthquake. One flying angel on bolder tells


what happened. Mat 28


–Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James,


and Salome go to tomb, find no guards or bolder


and one young man in tomb tell what happened.


But women told no one. Mark 16


–Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of James, Joanna,


and some other women go to tomb, and two men


in the tomb tell what happened. Luke 24


–Mary goes to the tomb to find nothing, she


tells the disciples someone stole body so they go


back and again find nothing. The disciples then


leave and Jesus appears to tell Mary what


happened. John 20


—-older versions of Mark end at Mark 16:8


without anyone seeing the risen Christ.


— Earth will exist forever Eccl 1:4.


–Earth will end in Armageddon 2Pet 3:10


–Judas fell and burst open. Act 1:18-19.


–Judas hung himself. Mat 27-3:10.


–Jesus carries his own cross. John 19:17.


–Simon carries Jesus’ cross. Mark 15:21-22.


–Wisdom is good Prov 3:13, 4:7


–Wisdom is bad 1Cor 1:19 Eccl 1:18


–God had one son 1John 4:9


–God had many sons Gen 6:2,4 Job 1:6, 2:1


Miscellaneous Contradictions Continued


–No author was at Jesus’ trial yet narrative


fabricated to fit OT. Mark 14:50.


–Jesus crucified at 9:00am (3rd hour Rom) on


Passover. Mark 15:1,25 14:1


–Jesus crucified noon (6th hour Rom) day before


Passover. John 19:14.


–Virgin birth and the baptism.


God and Evil


–God admits He created evil. Isaiah 45:7 Amos 3:6


–God sends Satan to ruin Job’s life. Job 2:1-7.


–God hardens Pharaoh’s heart. Ex 9:12,


10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:8.


–God commands/supports slavery.


Lev 25:44-46, Ex 21:2-8, Eph 6:5, Col 3:22.


–Anti women. 1Cor 14:34, 1Tim 2:9-14, Gen 5:16.


–rape rules: Deut 22:23-29, in city man+woman die;


in country only man dies; if woman not married


then man pays 50 shekels, and they wed.


–Anti Jew. 1Thes 2:14,15, Titus 1:10


–God favors neither good nor evil. Mat 5:45.


–God created some people predestined to go to


hell Rom 8:29-30, Jude 1:4, Mat 7:13-14.


–God admits to deceit. 1Kings 22:23. Is 6:10.


–Jesus admits to deceit (reason for parables).


2Thess 2:11-12, Mark 4:10-12, Mat 13:10-11


–God sends bears to kill children. 2Kings 2:24.


–God commands the killing of babies Num 31:17,


Deut 20:13, Psalm 137:9, Lev 26:29, Num 31:17.


–Jesus threatens to kill children for mother’s


crime Rev 2:23


–God/Jesus hate. Rom 9:13, Rev 2:6, Psalm 5:5


–don’t associate with people who have different


opinions. 2John 1:10-11. 2Cor 6:14-17


–Incestuous Lot revered. 2Peter 2:7


(bribes and threats–heaven and hell)


The simple believes every word but the prudent


considers well his every step. Prov 14:15


Please consider this before appropriating a response… I will be posting regarding women in the church and homosexuality yet again…..



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 7, 2007, 21:46

I do not agree with progressive interpretations of bible verses and the suposed bias of the translators, but I can see how this conclusion is useful in backing up your previous points.


My point i was trying to make is that so much is majored on such issues as sexuality (not that it is all ok and acceptable) when there are true and desperate needs out there everywhere that the vast majority of churches ignore. Two wrongs do not make a right but in my understanding and stance in life I need to make sure i am doing and living the best way i know how to according to His word, trying my best to be led by the Spirit of God. Holy Spirit’s job is to correct us when we are in sin, not people that have planks in their own eyes as big as mine. There is a place for correction but in my view you really have had to hear from God to act on instigating it.


I agree that sexuality is a social taboo and is something that has nothing to do with religion, spured on by the aids epidemic and dodgey pop psychology a ‘moral panic’ of sorts has errupted around homosexuality and it is given more negative attention than it in fact deserves. Point taken. Perhaps my understanding of your next idea is limmited by my experience but, honestly, if I waited around for a dirrect revelation from God concerning every decision I make I would go insane and get nothing done. I do not get visions or see signs, I know God through his word and his spirit convicts me through that same word. Of course people who counsel others are just as sinful and just as much in need of grace and at times it can be a case of the blind leading the blind. But God does not sit up there on some transcendant throne issueing personal commands and revelations to individuals 24/7. He uses his creation to acheive his works! He uses us to help, encourage and mature our christian faith. We are suposed to be a community of believers, rejecting others ideas that have in all possibility come from God creates a barrier dont you think? Its great to have a personal, one on one, interactive relationship with God but as Christians we need relationships with others too, we need to encourage each other and build each other up in Godly wisdom! Again I think my understanding of your point is severly hampered by my lack of experience, but I am sure that God has not personally dictated a command on every aspect of your life as an individual, where do you gain wisdom and Godly insight from then, if not from Gods chosen people.


It was certainly not my intention to upset you Jannah. I am certainly interested to hear why you believe my doctrine on women to be unsound biblically. “11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” I believe that to be pretty clear, I wonder that you have trouble with the interpretation. I certainly don’t have all the answers, I dont get the women are saved through childbirth thing, I don’t see how having children is in proportion with salavtion at all! But alas, it is the word of God and even if I dont have all the answers, He does.


Let me reiterate that I believe men and women are equal in the eyes of God, and ought to be in society. I work in a male dominated profession and believe me I am all for womens rights in this area. But equality does not mean sameness! Men and women can be equal and still have different roles. It is society that demeans motherhood, that demeans unpaid labour, that suggests if you do not wear a suit or bring home a salary that you are not as valuable, it is society that promotes leaderships roles in the church over others. Jesus took on the role of a servant, to God, to his diciples and to all of us in dying for our sins, if it is good enough for Jesus it is good enough for women!


Of course women could lead, in some cases they could certainly do it better than man, it is not a question of ability. It is unfair that women can often fail to have a voice in church, this through is due to poor male leadership that subverts women and denys a listening ear for their concerns. Now perhaps you see the implementor of new ideas as more worthy or valuable than the founder of them, they certainly get more credit. But this is not about credit, this is about the role of women, as as Paul suggests, submissive. The term submissive is soooo loaded isn’t it! But think about it, Jesus was submissive to God’s leadership, he did not fight with God over the whole crucifixion plan, he accepted it as the best. Now if only all men were like God! I am personally glad not to be married, one of the reasons revolves around the roles of men and women in marriage with man as the leader. (note that leadership and roles is only in relation to church life and marriage, not othe apects of life in general). I am too independant to stand back and let a man make a poor decision, even if we have discussed it and tried to compromise, I believe that ultimatly it is his decision as the leader. It comforts me that God is the ultimate just judge.


I am not sure why you have added the rest except to prolouge forthcomming ideas about some of the seemingly astounding things the bible has to say. For the sake of time and space I wish to deal with a few you have cited from the new testement. You suggest that Luke 19:27 states that we ought to kill those who do not believe in Jesus. This is false. In the parable there are only two kinds of people, the king and the servants he sends out to make him money. Interpreting the parable we could say that the king is Jesus and the servants are us, that he asks us to use the spiritual gifts he has given us and use them to further his kingdom, to those who take his gifts and squander them, or do nothing with them becuase they hate him deserve to die; I know its not a popular catch phrase but those who reject Jesus will eventually die, they will not inherret the riches of eternal life. WE are not called to kill these people, Jesus is the only true jugde, we are only called to be true and faithful servants.


You suggest that Luke 14:26 states that we should hate and leave our familes. Putting the passage into context Luke suggests that we need to hate earthly things, and have an eternal outlook. Yes the NIV uses the word hate, but come on, use some common sense and its obvious that Luke is not suggesting that you hate your family simply because. It is saying that we can not become too attached at the sake of Jesus’ plan. The message version phrases this better. Every person is sinful so there are aspects of everyone that we should hate, and our love for God overrides any love we have for anyone on this earth, in comparison to the importance of our relationship with God all earthy relationships pale into insignificance, and we are called to let go of them if they hinder our christian walk.


I will borrow some phrases from you and say that it is unbiblical and unwise to suggest that certain passages denote certain sentiments without backing this up with explanation or context. I am also shocked to discover that you would teach this to others, it is simply untrue and peverts the word of God.


I hope that is clears up a few of the issues you had with my last responce and I look forward to your comming posts.



frogger
 
Joined in 2005
June 7, 2007, 22:38

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A great lie of Satan is that women have limitations on HOW they can serve God. They may teach children and other women, but not men; do PRIVATE but not PUBLIC teaching. Yet these “rules” didn’t come from the lips of Jesus!


Instead Jesus praised the woman of John 4 who turned the men of her village to Jesus, and helped convert many of them. He reprimanded the disciples who claimed it wasn’t time for the harvest and pointed out that they were reaping where others had sown! The King James translators realized that this was a vital point and therefore added the word “men” as if men had done this sowing, but most other versions translate it correctly. “I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labor. And from that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, ‘He told me all the things that I {have} done.'” John 4: 38-39, quoted from the New American Standard Bible.


The primary one sowing these seeds was a woman! Jesus didn’t tell her to stop her public testimony– our Savior praised her!


Paul himself took a woman on a missionary journey to Ephesus, called one woman a Minister, and praised another woman as an outstanding Apostle. (See “Traveling through Time” and “Junia, a Woman Apostle” at ChurchofGodDFW.com.) Scripture does not contradict itself! How then can we have two scriptures that read as if Paul is restricting women from teaching and telling them to “keep silent” in church? I wrote “Paul and Women Teachers” and “Let the Women Keep Silent, what did Paul mean?” However, many have requested a shorter answer to both these scriptures, so here is the short version.


Let the Women keep Silent?


The “keep silent” admonition was written to a church at Corinth that was a short forty mile boat ride away from the world famous Oracle at Delphi. At this temple women priestesses uttered babble which was interpreted and presented as messages from a pagan god. In 1Cor, Chapter 12, Paul introduces the subject of “spiritual gifts” and then he reminds church members they were once running after dumb idols themselves. Someone in the group had delivered an especially shocking “message” while claiming to be speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit.


1Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (NAS)


So we have Paul defending spiritual gifts in this chapter while saying that this particular “prophet” was not being directed by the Holy Spirit! Again the KJV adds maleness to this person while the Greek says “no one”. Later we learn these false prophets are female just like at Delphi! As we examine chapter 14 we find many references to speaking in languages (tongues) and the prophetic gift. Paul scolds the disrupters and demands that prophets keep control over their own spirits. Paul finally makes a ruling affecting the entire ekklesia, a word that means “the converted true believers, the called out ones”:


A clear translation is,

Let those women keep silent among the called out ones


The New American Standard: Let the (THOSE) women keep silent in (AMONG) the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.


Let those women–who are not yet a part of the converted membership– keep silent among the called out ones– the ekklesia — and subject themselves to their poor embarrassed, converted husbands. Rather than participating in services as the converted women do, they are to ask their husbands to instruct them at home. The KJV adds several words to this verse that are not in the Greek manuscripts, adding “your” to women, and the phrase “they are commanded”. These added words make it sound like a universal ruling against ALL the women when it is not.


THOSE and AMONG written in all capitols are alternate translations of the Greek words. To find hoi/hai (male/female forms of the same word, Strong’s 3588) translated as THOSE see Matt 8:33, 9:12, 10:36, and 12:3 in the New King James. The Greek en is frequently translated as AMONG, see Matt 2:6, Matt 4:23, Matt 16:8 and Matt 20:26. The word translated as “churches”, ekklesia, means the true believers within the churches, both men and women.


All members participated in services as we see in 1Cor. 14:26 and 31, and this was to continue, but women attending with converted husbands–wives who were not presently among the “ekklesia”– were not to participate as the converted women did.


Reprimanding the False Prophet


One final verse that proves someone was being reprimanded for saying “Jesus be cursed” is found at the end of the letter. 1Cor 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord– a curse be on *him. Come, O Lord! New International Version


*The word “him”– in “a curse be on him”– is taken from a third person verb and could be “her” just as easily. At the first of this verse the KJV has “If any man” instead of correctly translating “If anyone”–” again confusing the issue. Paul was correcting a woman! This entire passage is only hard to understand because several key words are mistranslated. Disruptive women who prophesy falsely are the ones that must “keep silent”– not believing women!


Fighting False Doctrines


Paul left Timothy behind in Ephesus to stop false teachers; 1Tim 1:3. The church there was fighting many false doctrines from the religion of Artemis because Ephesus was the world center of her worship. The mystery religions and Gnostic beliefs shared many of these same beliefs.


Here are five of these false doctrines widely believed in Ephesus:


1. Eve was created before Adam and received “special knowledge” when she ate the forbidden fruit.


2. Female “Mediators” passed this “special knowledge” on to men during sexual rites featuring intercourse.


3. Mediator women mixing sex with worship were called “Authenia” from the Greek word “Authenteo”.


4. Warrior women called Amazons. who were superior to men, founded the city of Ephesus and set up the worship of the fertility goddess Artemis.


5. Artemis, whose name meant SAFE, could keep a woman safe during the dangers of childbirth.


Paul is arming Timothy against every one of these evil doctrines! He warns him in 1Tim 1:20 against two teachers who blaspheme, one a female named Hymenaeus meaning “Wedding Song” and the other a male named Alexander. The doctrine of female Mediators is countered in 1Tim 2:5, “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men…”. A few verses later Paul moves to stop female teachers such as Hymenaeus by instructing, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to “AUTHENTEIN” a man, but to be in silence.”


A Woman is not to Teach What?!


The entire King James phrase “to usurp authority over” is incorrectly translated from one Greek word, “AUTHENTEIN”. This word is used only once in the New Testament, and is called by an early instructor, “a coarse word”. The “ein” ending tells us that it is the “to” form of a verb made from Authenteo, Strong’s 831. A noun form of the same word is “Authenia” which is the term for the women “Mediators” mixing intercourse with religion! Paul is saying he won’t allow women to teach or to ____ a man! Insert a coarse sexual word, which is our closest word to the Greek word “Authentein”. At the time of Paul it meant to have sex as a part of worship–a joining of a man with a female mediator who represented the goddess being worshipped.


In the very next verse Paul stops the doctrine of Eve being created first, “For Adam was formed first, then Eve.” Next he points out that Eve was deceived, not given special knowledge. The final verse proves that Paul is countering evil doctrines!


Safely through Childbirth


1Tim.2:15 should be translated “But she (a woman) will be safe throughout the childbearing if they (her and her husband) continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.” Paul uses the word “safe” not the word “saved” as it is usually translated. The Phillips Bible comes closest with, “Women will come safely through childbirth…” Remember the meaning of Artemis’ name? It meant SAFE. Paul is making a play on words that God keeps women safe– not Artemis!


We have studied the context, the backgrounds of Corinth and Ephesus, the evil doctrines, and peeked into the Greek text with modern software. The simple conclusions are that in Corinth Paul was stopping pagan women from posing as prophets and demanding that they keep silent, and in Ephesus he was fighting women “Mediators” teaching evil doctrines. Neither of these two passages of scripture can rightfully be used to limit Christian women serving God however He directs them.


The apostle Paul wrote letters to churches to mediate in the problems of each church and set guidelines for them to follow. Many believe that Paul set up a rule that all Christian women must “keep silent” during church services. Some extend this to mean that women may not offer prayers, lead songs, read scriptures aloud or have any leadership role during or after services. To limit the women of God in such a way is a serious thing, and we must be very sure that Paul’s words are being understood correctly.


We are handicapped when we read the letter Paul wrote to the church at Corinth because we do not know exactly what events Paul was responding to. They knew– but we have to read very carefully and ask in prayer for God to help us understand the situations that prompted Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth, the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians. Please take a moment now to pray to God for understanding and wisdom.


In 1 Cor. 11:13 Paul deals with a controversy about whether women should have their heads covered while praying and prophesying. Jewish women wore head-covering veils; gentile women did not. Evidently the two cultures were in conflict over women’s head coverings, but not whether women should participate! He concludes that long hair becomes a covering for women who pray and prophesy publicly. Note that Paul’s words here do NOT stop the women from praying and prophesying aloud during church services as some would assume.


Acts 21:9 reveals that Phillip the evangelist had “four virgin daughters who prophesied.” A true prophecy is a message from God to a specific person or church. Would any minister of God refuse to let a woman deliver a true message that God had given her for the people of God? We have every reason to believe that converted Christian women such as the daughters of Phillip were participating in church services– using their own God-given spiritual gifts, and Paul did not oppose their participation.


Yet the church at Corinth was having some problems that had to do with false prophets or prophetesses. Paul must deal with the problem without shutting down the church’s access to the true prophets and prophetesses of God. It was a touchy situation.


The Key that unlocks the “keep silent” passage!


To understand Paul’s comments in chapter 14 about women “keeping silent” there is one critical KEY passage that comes first! Many have overlooked it and read right past it– but once it is understood the entire passage begins to fall into place.


We start in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12. Lets examine it verse by verse using the very literal New American Standard Bible. Brackets {indicate words added by translators that are not in the Greek} and parenthesis (indicate the author’s comments or explanations).


1 Cor. 12:1-3


1 Now concerning spiritual {gifts,} brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.


2 You know that when you were pagans, {you were} led astray to the dumb idols, however you were led.


We realize that some that attend the Corinth church are still involved with pagan idols. He points out that the members were once led astray themselves. Paul leads his readers towards compassion and reconciliation towards those that are still unconverted “pagans” in their midst.


3 Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.


Why is Paul making such an obvious statement? Doesn’t everyone already KNOW that anyone saying, “Jesus is accursed” is not speaking by the spirit of God? Paul goes on to explain and defend spiritual gifts, talk about love, and finally reprimand women or wives causing disturbances in chapter 14. The only way the words “Jesus is accursed” fits into the rebuke that follows is if Paul is reacting to a specific incident reported to him that he needs to deal with. In these statements he is first bringing up the subject of what has happened in the Corinthian church! Misguided persons–still considered pagans– have disrupted services with a false prophecy of “Jesus is accursed!” and opposing true prophets have countered with, “Jesus is Lord!” in reply!


Paul teaches that ALL receive spiritual gifts


Notice that in these verses immediately following the above verses, Paul is defending the concept of spiritual gifts given to every single true believer– both males and females:


1 Cor. 12:4-11


4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.


5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.


6 And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all {persons}.


Here he teaches that both men and women are given manifestation of the Holy Spirit– spiritual gifts– for the benefit of the entire church, not just for their own benefit.


7 But to each one[ii] is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.


8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;


9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,


10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another {various} kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.


11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one[iii] individually just as He wills.


Paul is going out of his way to enforce that “each one” is given a spiritual gift/ role or part to play in God’s Church. God gives these roles as He desires– only God can decide what spiritual gift is given to each man and woman! Paul does not say anything to indicate that “these public roles are the male gifts, and these private roles are the female gifts” as some teach.


Paul is making it PLAIN that he does not wish to exclude anyone or anyone’s spiritual gift, but verses 2 and 3 show us that someone– possibly a woman– has said, “Jesus be cursed”, and this was not from God’s Spirit! Paul warns them of the error of this message, yet also defends the rights of all true believers– both male and female– to participate in church services.


Prophecy and Love


The next portion of Paul’s letter, chapter 13, is still on the subject of prophecy as he moves closer to dealing with the specific problem. He tells them that love is more important than prophecy as he tries to change their attitudes to loving attitudes to heal the disruption that has upset and angered their congregation.


1 Cor 13:2 And if I have {the gift of} prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (NAS)


Moving into chapter 14 Paul writes, “Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual {gifts}, but especially that you may prophesy.”


Paul keeps returning to the subject of prophecy because the problem that he is trying to solve involves a woman who is falsely presenting herself as a prophetess. The daughters of Phillip are true prophetesses, but this women is still “led astray to the dumb idols”.


He points out that prophecy should edify the church, 1 Cor 14:4, and talks against speech that has an unclear meaning, a babbling, in verses 5-13. This unclear speech may relate to the worship of “dumb idols” in the city of Delphi just north of Corinth. People from all over the world came to Delphi to hear babbling that was supposed to be from a “god”!


Women or Wives?


We must also bear in mind that the Greeks had only one word for both woman and wife– the word “gune[iv]”. The same word that Paul uses in 1 Cor 14:34 is translated “wives” in many passages such as Matthew 19:8, “Jesus replied, ‘Moses permitted you to divorce your wives…'” and many others including Ephesians 5:25 and 1 Peter 3:1. So when Paul writes, “Let the women keep silent” he uses a word with two meanings! He may well be referring to “wives” who are unconverted and untaught– the very one that “prophesied” that “Jesus was accursed” as recorded in 1 Cor 12:3. The church at Corinth would know exactly which wife or wives he meant! For us today, we must rely on context clues to reveal whether Paul was talking of women in general or specific wives.


Corinth and a woman minister


Corinth was a large seacoast city on the Gulf of Corinth, and its eastern port was called Cenchrea.[v] This port area of Corinth was the home of Phoebe, mentioned in Romans 16:1 as a “diakonon” which is translated “servant” in this passage. This same exact word is translated “minister” in “is Chirst then the minister of sin?” Galatians 2:17. Paul refers to himself in Ephesian 3:7, “I became a minister” and in Col. 1:25, “I am made a minister” using the same exact word. Also see 1 Cor. 3:5, “ministers by whom ye believed”, as well as 2 Cor. 3:6, “ministers of the new covenant”. [vi] This woman minister traveled to Rome carrying the book of Romans, and is highly praised by Paul. See the paper “Traveling through Time” for more information about her. Since Phoebe was a minister from the eastern port of Corinth, it is a major proof that Paul but did not restrict Phoebe and others from playing a major role in churches of that area.


Critical background information: The Oracle of Delphi


Just across the bay from Corinth was a major attraction of the ancient world, the Oracle of Delphi. On the southern slope of Mt. Parnassus, female priestesses presided over a stone temple and delivered answers for those seeking guidance from the “god” Apollo on everything from romance to whether to wage war. A prophetess about fifty-five years old would receive a question written on a lead tablet and would descend to the basement of the temple where she breathed fumes of ethelyne, a sweet-smelling gas that produces feelings of euphoria. The gas drifted up from a fault line under the temple. Modern researchers have verified the presence of this gas and it can still be detected today.[vii] The priestess would utter “prophecies” while she was in a trance-like state, and these would pour out in a garbled state. Male priests “interpreted” these sounds. Interpretations were usually vague and ambiguous– increasing their chances of being perceived as accurate.[viii]


The Oracle of Delphi existed for twelve centuries and was very famous in the ancient world. The congregation in Corinth was well aware of it and many probably witnessed the “oracle” in person. The unconverted mates of church members might still have been involved in similar pagan worship, as Delphi was only about forty miles north of Corinth across what is known today as the Gulf of Corinth.


Control yourselves!


Paul writes, “For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;” 1 Cor 14:31. Notice he doesn’t say that all MEN may prophesy, but that ALL can prophesy if it is done “one by one”. In verse 32 he adds that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to prophets”; meaning that true prophets are not out of control or in some gas-induced trance, as were the priestesses of Delphi. Prophets of God have control over their spirits and their speaking.


A God of Peace in all the churches of the saints


Verse 33 clearly illustrates that this entire issue was about confusion and disruption in the church, not Paul seeking to take away the rights of Christian women to participate.


1 Cor. 14:33 for God is not {a God} of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.[ix]


Wives/Women keeping silent


1 Cor 14:34


34 Let the {or *those} women (the same word as “wives”) keep silent in the churches {church}; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.


*The Greeks have many forms of the word “the” but this exact word is “hai” 3588. .In all the following New King James scriptures the same word in the male form –“hoi” is translated “those”: John 6:14, “those men” ; John 8:29 KJV, “those things”; Romans 8:5 “For those who”; Romans 8:8, “those who are in the flesh” NKJ; 1 Cor 10:18, “those who eat”; 1 Cor. 15:18, “those who have fallen asleep”; and 1 Cor. 15:23, “those who are Christ’s”; Gal. 3:9, “those who are of faith”; Gal. 5:24, “those who are Christ’s”; Gal. 6:13, “those who are”; 1Thes. 5:7, “Those who sleep”; 1 Tim 3:13 “For those who have served well; 2Tim. 1:15, “all those in Asia”; 2 Tim 3:6, “those who creep”.


By using the feminine form of this word, “hai”, Paul is saying, “Let those wives keep silent…” Not ALL women, just those causing confusion!


Paul is urging the churches to start a policy of limiting the participation of “those” wives, unconverted wives, who must subject themselves to their converted husbands, not causing any further disruption. Paul’s reference to “the Law” may be a reference to Genesis 3:16 which relates to being subject to a husband in marriage.


Wives with converted husbands


1 Cor 14:35


35 And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; …”


The phrase “if they desire to learn anything” expresses doubt whether these wives were wanting to learn. He implies they were just there to cause problems! Clearly Paul is dealing with specific wives because these being reprimanded have converted husbands they may ask at home. Wives with unconverted husbands could NOT “ask their own husbands at home, nor could unmarried women or widows.


He continues, “for it is improper for a woman (wife) to speak in church (the last two Greek words are– en ekkleesia, which can also be translated among the true believers.)


The Greek en is translated “among” in Matt. 27:56, “among which was Mary Magdalene” and Romans 8:29, “among many brethren” and countless other scriptures.[x] Paul says that this unconverted wife may not speak among the “ekkleesia” among the converted male and female members participating in services!


The word “ekkleesia” translated “church” does not refer to a church building but to the entire congregation of Christian believers– both men and women! Ekkleesia is defined by Thayer’s Greek/Engllish Definitions as “an assembly of Christians gathered for worship.” It also means “called out” ones. This disruptive wife who babbles blasphemous “prophecies” is not a part of the baptized believers (the ekkleesia), and she is not to speak among the converted Christian men and women as do the women with the true spiritual gift of prophecy. The passage should be translated as follows:


1 Cor 14:34-35


34 Let those wives keep silent among the called out ones; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a wife to speak among the called out ones.


God only talks to you?


Paul’s next words of biting sarcasm reflect his anger at this would be prophetess:


1 Cor. 14:36


36 Was it from you that the word of God {first} went forth? Or has it come to you only?


This proves that prophetic blasphemy has caused this uproar, the false prophecy of 1 Cor 12:3 delivered by a woman acting in a manner much like a prophetess of Delphi speaking for Apollo! She uttered a garbled “prophecy” and interpreted it as “Jesus is cursed.” To be sure that this woman who considered herself a prophetess accepts his ruling in this situation Paul adds-


1 Cor. 14:37-40


37 If anyone thinks he[xi] (or she) is a prophet or spiritual, let him (or her) recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.


38 But if anyone does not recognize {this} he (or she) is not recognized.


Yet Paul is NOT limiting the brethren of the church, the men and women given spiritual gifts, for he tells the “brethren,” the converted men and women– to desire to prophesy!


39 Therefore, my brethren (men and women of the ekkleesia), desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.


Paul’s last words of chapter 14 show he is dealing with disorder– and those causing it.


40 But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner.


A Curse on the person cursing Jesus!


Paul ends his letter with a threat towards the one who announced in services, “Jesus be cursed” mentioned in 1Cor 12:3. He concludes, “If anyone does not love the Lord, a curse be on him. (The Greek could mean him or her.) O Lord, come!” 1Cor 16:22, NIV.


No “Male” or “Female” Gifts


Further proof that Paul did not limit women’s participation in the church services of the churches is found in this same letter in 1 Cor 12:28-31.


28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, {various} kinds of tongues. (Paul lists prophets second in the order of responsibility before God.)


29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not {workers of} miracles, are they?


30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?


31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts….


Chapter 12 deals with spiritual gifts and Paul considers all the church offices listed above, apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. as spiritual gifts, given by God, not man! There is not a single scripture that lists some of these as “male” gifts and some of these as “female” gifts. Paul argues that each person receives a gift, and advises all to “desire the greater gifts”! Would he say that if any of the top five gifts were “off limits” to women?


1 Cor. 12:7


7 But to each one[xii] is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.


Women are given spiritual gifts by God to use for the common good of the people of God. Paul did not take away the right of women to use these spiritual gifts in services– a woman with a gift of encouragement must be allowed to encourage. A woman with a gift of faith must be allowed to offer a prayer of faith. A woman with a word of wisdom must be allowed to publicly share her wisdom with the congregation. A woman with a musical gift must be allowed to lead joyful songs of praise. A woman with a gift of teaching must be allowed to teach truth. (See “Paul and Woman Teachers” for an explanation of the very misunderstood 1 Tim 2:12.) God does NOT limit His women. God sees women as equal to serve Him with whatever gifts He has given them to use for the common good.


If women are unable to participate during church services, then many are unable to contribute the gift God has given to them. Each spiritual gift is given for the benefit of the church as a whole– the inability to participate in church services is like God giving a woman a beautifully wrapped, expensive gift–a present that would help her entire church– and then telling her that she cannot open it! Would God do such a thing? No, He does not. Neither must men. To quote the words of Craig S. Keener, “…it is a dangerous thing to turn people from their call, or to oppose their call if it is genuinely from God.[xiii]


In this verse, The King James Version reads, “no man” but “man” is not in the Greek. The word is a form of 3762 “oudeis” meaning no one. It can include both men and women.


[ii] The Greek word used is “hekastos” 1538, meaning “each, every”; The King James is in error to translate, “to every man”.


[iii] The word is ” hekastos” 1538 each, every; The King James is in error to translate, “every man”.


[iv] Strong’s number 1248, meaning a woman or wife. The actual word used in 1 Cor. 14:34 is “gunaikes” the plural form.


[v] Thayer’s Greek/English Definitions, 2747 Cenchrea = “millet” the eastern harbor of Corinth (that is, its harbor on the Saronic Gulf) and the emporium of its trade with the Asiatic shores of the Mediterranean


[vi] Strong’s 1249 diakonos Translated “minister” or “ministers” in Eph. 6:21, 2Cor. 6:4, 11:15, 23. Col. 1:7, 23, 25. 1Tim. 4:6 in the King James Version.


[vii] Reported in the Star-Telegram March 24, 2002, Page 23A, and Clinical Toxicology, April 2002.


[viii] World Book Enclyclopedia, 1962 Edition, Vol. 4, Page 102.


[ix] Some Bible versions incorrectly punctuate this verse by ending it with a comma rather than a period.


[x] See Matt. 2:6 “among the princes”, Matt 4:23, “among the people”, Matt. 11:11, 16:7,8; 20:26,27; 21:38; 26:5; Romans 1:5,6,13 and numerous other places throughout the New Testament.


[xi] The “he” is not in the Greek but is taken from a verb in the second person, and could be “he” or “she”.


[xii] The King James incorrectly translates “to every man” but “man” is not in the Greek.


[xiii] Quoted from Paul, Women and Wives, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.1992, page 120.


Paul has a problem. He left Timothy behind in Ephesus to deal with false teachers who threatened to destroy the church there. “As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain ones (“men” is not in the Greek text but “tisin” meaning ones) not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God’s work…” 1 Timothy 1:3-4, New International Version Bible quoted throughout.


The situation has gotten so bad that Paul writes the young minister Timothy that he must command some to stop their false teaching and devotion to “myths and genealogies”. He describes the situation.


1 Tim 1:6-7 “Some have wandered away from these (a pure heart, a good conscience, and faith) and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.”


Then Paul launches into a discussion of sin and the law that seems to be refuting concepts taught by these wrong “teachers of the law”. We see only Paul’s half of this communication; we do not have the message from Timothy that explains the current problems in Ephesus that Paul is responding to.

What was Ephesus like?


It is helpful to understand the setting. Ephesus was a wealthy Asian city that revolved around the massive Temple of Artemis, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Understanding the religion of Artemis, also known as Diana, is very important in understanding the words Paul writes. Notice in the quotation below that Artemis, a fertility goddess, was believed to protect women during childbirth.


“‘Artemis of the Ephesians’ was not a Greek divinity, but Asiatic. This is shown by the fact that eunuchs were employed in her worship– a practice quite foreign to Greek ideas. She was not regarded as a virgin but as mother and foster-mother, as is clearly shown by the multitude of breasts in the rude effigy. She was undoubtedly a representative of the same power presiding over conception and birth that was adored in Palestine under the name Ashtoreth. Her worship, frantic and fanatical after the manner of Asia, was traced back to the Amazons. Her temple at Ephesus was one of the wonders of the world, but its great glory was the ‘image which fell down from heaven’ (Acts 19:35).” New Unger’s Bible Dictionary published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois, 1988.


Thousands of women died in childbirth or in illnesses following childbirth. A goddess that promised protection had a very loyal following. Men were attracted to this religion of a multi-breasted goddess because sex was a part of the worship of Artemis. They believed sexual intercourse in the temple linked them with the gods. There were so many young female priestesses serving in the temple that they were called bees. A bee adorned one of their coins, and blatantly advertised their city’s main attraction! Paul may be fighting these sexual practices when in chapter 1:20 he addresses “adulterers and perverts” and urges Timothy to “fight the good fight (against wrong doctrines), holding on to the faith and a good conscience.” Paul names Hymenaeus and Alexander who rejected faith and a good conscience–meaning they engaged in sinful practices– and taught blasphemy.


The name Hymenaeus is Latin for “Wedding Song” according to Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary. It may well be a female name as “Wedding Song” does not sound masculine, and is similar to a legendary Amazon woman warrior who was named Death Song. In 2Tim 2:17 we find that Wedding Song taught that the resurrection had already taken place, but we don’t know all of the blasphemy being taught. If Wedding Song was female it would help explain Paul’s concerns about wives or women teaching in Ephesus and would explain Paul using the word “tisin” in 1Tim 1: “charge some (tisin, 5100) that they teach no other doctrine” (KJV) rather than saying “some men”.


Next Paul urges prayers for peaceful lives. Paul’s violent conflict with Demetrius, a silver craftsmen making shrines to Diana, is recorded in Acts 19:24-41 and the city-wide riot that followed. Paul probably has this specific episode in mind when he urges church members at Ephesus to offer “prayers…that we may live peaceful (Greek-hesuchios) and quiet (Greek-eremos) lives…” 1Tim 2:1-2. The word he uses for peaceful, (heesuchion from hesuchios, Strong’s 2272), is the male form of the word and it translates as “peaceful”. The feminine form of the same word (hesuchia, hay-soo-khee’-ah, 2271) is used twice in 1Tim 2:11-12 describing the atmosphere in which a woman should learn and what Paul feels should be a woman’s attitude. The same word used in the same chapter should have the same translation, “peaceful”-a peaceful learning atmosphere-the same atmosphere Paul urges them to pray for so that they might have undisturbed lives! Yet instead of being translated “peaceful” as it is in the male form, the female form of the same word is translated as “silence”! Note that female and male forms of the same word are normally given the same meaning and Strong’s number–but not here! There are many clues in the second chapter of 1Timothy that an angry dispute has occurred, and peacefulness is the exact attribute that Paul advocates for women and men.


So in 1Tim 2:11-12, when Paul uses the female form of the same word, he is requesting a peaceful atmosphere free of anger and disputing, not silence! But let’s go on with our understanding of the beliefs that Paul and Timothy were fighting at Ephesus.

Myths and Genealogies


Remember when Paul argued against “myths” in 1 Tim 1:4? It was widely believed at Ephesus that the original founders of their city were Amazons, and that some of the present residents were descendants of Amazons. Padraic Colum writes, “AMAZON, was one of a race of warlike women who made slaves of the men they captured. According to ancient Greek tradition, …The largest city they built was Ephesus. There they built many magnificent temples for …Artemis.” The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 1, pg. 344.


The Amazons are believed by some historians to have been real women whose exploits were magnified into myth. These Amazons are reported to have believed they were not only equal to men, but far superior to men! Therefore, proponents of the Amazons’ goddess Artemis taught female superiority, and this background caused marital problems for the Christian couples of Ephesus! Paul addresses this problem in Ephesians 5:22 as he urges wives to defer to their Christian husbands. Many Ephesian women were told tales of Amazon battles and exploits in their pre-Christian days and taught that they were descended from Amazons– a superior female race! This would explain the false teachers devoting themselves to “myths and endless genealogies” mentioned in 1Tim 1:4. The long genealogies linked them to their Amazon predecessors, whom they believed to be real people that founded Ephesus. Paul was convinced that they were mythological.


There is another hint that there were some angry confrontations going on in the Ephesus church when Paul inserts in 1Tim 2: 8, “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” Would this comment be necessary if there hadn’t been some anger and some disputing going on? Paul is correcting the men who participated in these angry outbursts, urging prayer not anger or arguments!


What was the likely cause of these disputes? The next verses tell us. Some women were dressing immodestly, even indecently, and were replete with gold and pearls like the priestesses of Artemis. These women were very likely advocating many pagan beliefs of religion in Ephesus! Paul upbraids them for their indecent clothing and tells them to “dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls…but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.” Did you notice his sideways swipe at “women who profess to worship God”? Paul felt these women weren’t truly worshipping God, only professing to worship God!

A Dilemma of Unconverted Wives?


On the day of Pentecost both men and women miraculously spoke foreign languages, Acts 1:14, 2:4. Acts 2:7 should read, “…are not all these who are speaking Galileans?” The Greek word “men” is not in verse 7, 8, 13, or 15, despite translations that add it. Because women were speaking also, Peter felt the day of Pentecost fulfilled the prophecy of Joel 2:28-30. “…Your sons and daughters will prophesy….” On the day of Pentecost God did not keep His women silent! Since women spoke languages during Pentecost services, and following Pentecost, both men and women members could use their God-given spiritual gifts during church services. Women were praying and prophesying during services, 1Cor 11:5, and a controversy arose over women wearing veils in public.


In this setting, men bringing unconverted wives to services could create problems. Were these wives allowed to participate as converted women did? If so, would they teach false doctrines? Was this the case with the wealthy women with low-cut dresses, gold and pearls, who “profess” to worship God, but still are so loyal to Artemis and the Amazons? Notice especially 1Tim 4:7, “Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.” Paul links “godless myths” directly to old wives! The Greek word for “woman” is the same word used for “wife” and this is confusing. Thus the exact same word is translated “wife” in 1Cor 7:3 and “woman” in 1Tim 2:12!


After dealing with the immoral appearance of these women, Paul launches into his instructions. The chart on the next page deals with each Greek word in its original order.


THE GREEK WORDS of 1Tim 2:11-12 together with English meanings

(Simplified, unaccented Greek, English transliterations, English translation and Strong’s numbers)

Greek


English

Strongs # gunh

Gunee

1. Wife/Woman

1135 en

en

in

1722 hsucia

heesuchia

peacefulness

2271


manqanetw

manthanetoo

2. I let learn

3129 en

en

in

1722 pash

pasee

all

3956 upotagh

hypotagee

obedience

5292 didaskein

didaskein

3. to teach

1321


de

de

4. but

1161 gunaiki

gunaiki

wife/woman

1135 ouk

ouk

not

3756 epitrepw

epitrepoo

I am allowing

2010


oude

oude

nor

3761 auqentein

authentein

5. to sexually seduce

831 andro

andros

man

435 all

all

but

235


einai

einai

to be

1511 en

en

in

1722 hsucia

heesuchia

6.peacefulness

2271


1. “Gunee” can be translated either wife or woman, Strong’s Greek Hebrew Dictionary, 1135, “a woman;…a wife.” For example, it is translated “wife” in 1Cor. 7:3 and 27.

2. let learn The w ending indicates “I” as in “I am allowing” two lines below, and expresses his practice. Basic Greek in 30 Minutes a Day by Jim Found, Page 84.

3. Jesus uses a form of the same verb, “didasko” 1321: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching (“didaskontes” 1321) them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Matthew 28:19-20.

4. In Greek usage the particle “de” modifies the word that comes directly before it, and becomes “but to teach” in this case.

5. Vincent’s Word Studies of the New Testament I Tim. 2:12,”The King James Version ‘usurp authority’ is a mistake.” Strong’s, to dominate. In the fourth century John Chrysostom used the same word, authentia to express “sexual license” or wrong sexual practices! Clement linked the word with women involved in sexual orgies.

6. The male form of the same word is translated “peaceful” or “peaceable” in 1Tim 2:2.


“A wife, in peacefulness, I let learn in all obedience (not causing disputes), but I am not allowing (a) wife to teach, nor to sexually seduce (a) man but to be in peacefulness”


Paul uses the Greek verb form that indicates present action, not a command verb form, for the present he is not allowing these women or wives of Ephesus to teach.


“Paul does not command the women not to teach. He employs the present active indicative for “allow.” The present tense in Greek principally denotes continuous present action. It can refer to present necessity and obligation and to potential action. Greek has its own imperative mood which is not here employed. Commands can also be phrased in the aorist or the future indicative. Neither of these tenses is here used. Nor does Paul use the perfect tense to denote an action in the past which has changed the state of affairs. Paul is saying: ‘I am not presently allowing a woman to teach.’” Beyond the Curse, Aida Besancon Spencer, Pg. 84-85.


An already established universal rule on women not teaching would already be understood by Timothy. Paul would not be writing in the present active indicative mood.


“Paul does not assume that Timothy already knows this rule. Had this rule been established and universal, is it possible that Timothy, who had worked many years with Paul, would not have known it already? Paul often reminds readers of traditions they should know by saying, ‘You know,’ or ‘Do you not know?’ or ‘According to the traditions which I delivered to you.’” Paul, Women and Wives, Craig S. Keener, Pg. 112.

Wives Dominating Husbands or Wrong Sexual Behavior?


The fourteenth Greek word in this passage, “authentein” is used only this one place in the entire New Testament so there is much controversy about its rightful interpretation. Several sources say that the KJV “to usurp authority over a man” is not accurate. Vincent’s Word Studies of the New Testament states of 1Tim. 2:12,“The King James Version ‘usurp authority’ is a mistake.” Strong’s defines “authentein” 831, “to act of oneself, to dominate”.


In his book, Who Said Women Can’t Teach, Charles Trombley argues convincingly that “authenein” had a sexual meaning. He states on page 176 that at the time of Paul “Authentein had not yet taken on the meaning ‘to usurp authority’.” He links the word to temple prostitutes that “believed fornication brought believers into contact with deity”, page 177. He argues the word “authenein” meant to engage in sexual immorality as in a pagan religious setting and quotes John Chrysostom, the patriarch of Constantinople, (345-407) who used “authentia” to express “sexual license”. Clement of Alexandria (d. 215) used the same word, “authentia” for a group of women who turned Christian love feasts into sexual orgies! Our passage uses authenein– a verb form of this same word.


Remember, the entire phrase “to usurp authority over the” is translated from one mystery word–authentein, a rare word which is used only once in the entire New Testament. If Charles Trombley and others are right, Paul’s use of “authentein” is urging these women (or unconverted wives) not to teach others nor “to sexually seduce” men!


So Paul is either saying that wives shouldn’t teach “to dominate” husbands or he is saying that they shouldn’t teach “to sexually seduce” men! Paul is also arguing against the teaching that Eve was formed before Adam, and that Eve received “special knowledge” by eating the forbidden fruit. Both were bedrock Gnostic beliefs and were widely known.


Remember that Artemis, “Safe” in the Ephesian language, promised wives protection during the dangerous process of childbirth? Paul deals with this next in 1Tim. 2:15, “But women (literally “she”) will be saved through (dia) childbearing (actually, safe throughout the childbearing)….” Wives will be kept safe throughout the dangerous process of childbearing– “if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” The Greek word Paul uses normally translated “saved” is “sozo” and means literally “safe”! Paul is using a play on words to allude to God keeping the woman “safe” rather than the “safe” goddess! The Phillips Bible translates this, “Women will come safely through childbirth…”.


Note also that the word translated “through”– “dia” is translated “throughout” in “Acts 9:32, and would be better translated “throughout” here also. Also Paul uses “the” which doesn’t get translated. Paul promises “she will be safe throughout the childbearing if they (both the husband and the wife?) continue in faith, love, holiness and sobriety”.


Some believe that this passage refers to spiritual salvation, or is an analogy to the church bearing converts, but Paul taught that we are saved only through Jesus Christ, and never referred to the church as Eve! The literal translation is “But she (the wife) shall be safe throughout the childbearing, if…” Paul is encouraging these women, “You don’t need a ‘Safe’ goddess during childbirth, God will keep you safe if both husband and wife stay in faith, love and holiness!” This reference to a safe childbirth is another strong proof that he is dealing with wives influenced by Artemis whose name meant “safe”.


Notice that childbirth was normally for wives, not for all women. Paul is concerned with wives who were teaching wrong concepts of female superiority and teaching others pagan sexual practices. Since he says in verse 10 that the women in question “professto worship God,” Paul has misgivings about their real intentions. They claim to worship God, yet he implies that these particular elaborately dressed women with the ornately braided hair may not really be worshipping God. Paul seems to be dealing with problems arising from unconverted wives still clinging to pagan myths and teachings, and these wives are passing myths and false doctrines on to others in the congregation. It is important to remember that Greek uses one word for both “wife” and “woman” as explained earlier. Those receiving his letter would know exactly whom he meant!


There had been an angry dispute in the Ephesus church causing Paul to urge the men in 1Tim 2:8 “ I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” Paul has obviously been asked to mediate in a fight over women in Ephesus teaching female domination and even sexual misconduct, and his answer was to stop allowing those Ephesian women or wives to teach! At the start of Paul’s letter he had urged “command certain ones not to teach false doctrines any longer”. Some of these false teachers were female–either teaching formally or teaching behind the scenes.

Paul tells Elder Women to Teach


Yet in Titus 2:3, Paul tells Titus that elder women should be teachers of the right way of life,


“Likewise, teach the older women (elder women) to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good,” (or, to be a “teacher of the right” way of life).


Paul says elder women are to be “teachers of the right” in the original Greek phrase “kalodidaskalos” Strong’s 2567, a teacher of the right. He suggests they start with instructing the younger women, but he does not limit them to teaching only females!


Paul was not against all women everywhere teaching, he was against Ephesian women teaching pagan concepts. Paul argues that Adam was formed before Eve, and thus Eve wasn’t created first as Gnostics taught, and being deceived she didn’t receive special knowledge. Also he reassures either a worried local pregnant woman or each woman, “she will be safe throughout the childbirth” if “they” live righteously.


Paul is reacting to a local problem of false teachers who may have been unconverted wives. The Greek language of Paul’s day had no way to differentiate “wife” from “woman” as one word was used for both. Obviously he is not dealing with dedicated Christian women teaching the Ten Commandments and true doctrines.


Paul’s second recorded letter to Timothy, 2 Tim 2:2, states, “And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable ‘anthroopois’ (men and women, Strong’s 444– defined by Thayer’s Greek Definitions as ‘a human being, whether male or female’) who will also be qualified to teach others.” If a person, male or female, is reliable, sound, qualified– then Paul says he/she should teach others God’s truth!


There are many instances of Paul praising women who teach the truth such as Priscilla, see Acts 18:2,18,26; 1 Cor. 16:19; and Romans 16:3; Phoebe, a “diakonon” servant/minister in Romans 16:1, Junia in Romans 16:7, “outstanding among the apostles” Nympha, and “her house church”– the only leader mentioned by name in Laodicea, Col. 4:15. Also Euodia and Syntyche who “contended at my side in the cause of the gospel” verbally wrestling with unbelievers, Phil. 4:1-3. He hails many other women as co-workers in Christ Jesus. If Paul had issued a blanket edict against all women teaching everywhere Paul would have reprimanded these women instead of praising them!

The Words of Jesus


Jesus tells us “…whoever practices and teaches these commands (the Ten Commandments), will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:19. Jesus put no gender restrictions on teaching, but said “whoever” and promises greatness for both men and women who teach the commandments. Women who practice and teach the Ten Commandments of God look forward to greatness! That is a promise from Jesus himself!


Paul was not in opposition to Jesus Christ! He was not dealing with dedicated Christian women teaching the true gospel– he repeatedly praised such women! He was dealing with false teachers teaching myths and pagan ideas learned from the religion of Artemis and Gnostic false doctrines.


Jesus praised the woman of Samaria that publicly preached the words of Jesus to the men and women of her village. He did not tell her to stop teaching the men because she was a woman! Jesus praised her and told the disciples that they were harvesting where she had sowed. As a result, “Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, ….” John 4:39. Her public witness –her teaching– resulted in conversions, and Jesus praised her and held her up as an example for the disciples!


The words of Jesus are clear commands for all of us to teach the true gospel, and we must never be misled by anyone who contradicts Jesus Christ.


For more on this subject, see, “Let the women keep silent, What did Paul mean?” “Junia, a Woman Apostle”, and “Traveling Through Time”, all by this same author.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
June 8, 2007, 00:42

Thats great information frogger, thankyou on both posts. D

I remember asking my Dad about the women keeping silent issue and Dad being brought up in a semi jewish household, told me that jewish women (women in general) used to ask questions throughout a service and disrupt the service so were told to keep quiet and ask questions later.

Women werent allowed to be present during the reading of the Torah etc… and now with the new faith in christ suddenly they can be, so questions wouldve let fly…..and being women we know what we are like LOL lol (not being derogatory at all) I know myself i have to either zip it for later or i whisper a “whats that?” shock …….so I do believe that this also was the issue at hand in Pauls time along with what has been stated above. Thankyou for taking the time for so much information. Very helpful. D

I have grown up amongst hungarian/jews and know culturally what they are like, i love them but the mouths go 100mile an hour LOL and veryyyyyy expressive “anywhere” LOL.(even funerals believe it or not)



oooooo
 
Joined in 2006
June 8, 2007, 07:54

hey for starters i am loving this debate, it is good and healthy.


If we are suppose to be able to get good sound wisdom just from reading the word of God and not ‘waiting on the Lord’ for direction for ourselves and people’s lives then is it sound knowledge that a man who had a very promiscious wife ( i know personally ) was told he was a modern day Hosea and was not to divorce his wife but stay married to her even though she fell pregnant with other men being the biological fathers more than once. This man, I know for a fact, never committed adultery, was a very faithful husband and they were both christians. Was that sound wise advise? Well it is in the bible after all. Another woman i know was told (a different church) to not divorce her husband just because he use to beat her and the kids black and blue. The bible says there is only one reason for divorce and it is adultery. Sound and wise biblical advise?? That man later killed his wife in front of the children. I was told by previous pastors of a church i attended to wait for my wife to be ready to marry me again. Ofcoarse she was on husband number 4 but she was my wife and should be married to me because we have children. She ofcoarse has children to other men too but that was not the point. This man previously mentioned was expected to wait for her to divorce her 4th husband and then he was to remarry her. Is that not cursing and wanting her marriage to fail just to have some weird out there marriage reconciliation. They stood on the Word of God. My point about making decisions by being led by the Holy Spirit stands. I am not referring to whether we should buy corn flakes or weet bix for breakfast. I am not even necessarily suggesting we wait on God for an answer as to whether we buy a car or not. Yes we have a brain and hopefully some common sense and a touch of wisdom for those things and if we don’t we ask around. But when we are dealing with people’s lives, counselling about marriage, safety issues, large decisions of changing careers, going overseas to India or wherever and planting a church or whatever should we not get clarification from God that it is His order for our lives???? or more importantly someone else’s lives?? I have more to say but i have a daughter to get to school so i shall return LOL


bless you all

T



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
June 8, 2007, 10:04

I am really enjoying this oooooo, would love to be able to express myself as you do D ……..Thankyou for re-affirming where I stand with my own beliefs. Yes, it is also good that these things are being discussed in the open. ) No one person has the be all end all interpretation of scripture, as its written we only know in part so, that says something doesnt it? wink We need each other, to get as much as we have been given in part.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 8, 2007, 10:21

I found some interesting information on a pastor who used to work at the Church of God church that Jannah mentioned above. This is not to suggest that the information is wrong or untrustworthy, just that the principal leader, of the principal organisation that published it was, most probably around the same time engaging in other practises.


It is certainly a valid interpretation, and further study is needed to clarify the greek and our personal interpretation of what has been said. We are never going to get everything right, we will probably get to heaven and God will give us a 2/10 for bible interpretation. On the face of things it sounds vaild, if it is in fact true, of course remains to be seen and studied.


FW pastor suspended after rape accusations


Woman’s lawsuit brought out 8 others’ stories, her lawyers say


12:02 PM CDT on Saturday, May 12, 2007

By MICHAEL GRABELL / The Dallas Morning News

[email protected]


A Fort Worth pastor accused of paddling and raping women under the guise of scriptural teaching has been suspended by the national body of the Church of God in Christ.


The suspension comes more than three months after a Fort Worth woman sued the Rev. Sherman C. Gee Allen of the Shiloh Institutional Church of God in Christ, contending that he repeatedly beat her with a paddle from 2001 to 2005 and forced her to have sex with him.


Since then, eight more women have come forward with similar stories, according to the woman’s lawyers.


Mr. Allen, who founded the Pentecostal congregation in 1983, could not be reached for comment Friday. But he has denied the allegations in court papers.


No one has filed criminal charges in the case in recent years, Fort Worth police said. Mr. Allen was indicted on sexual assault charges in 1983, but that case was dismissed.


On Wednesday, Alayna Adams, a spokeswoman for the national church, released the church’s first statement on the case.


“The Church of God in Christ does not condone inappropriate behavior from any of its representatives and does not comment on pending litigation,” it said. “Until then, Pastor Sherman Allen has been suspended from all national and local pastoral roles and activities.”


According to the lawsuit filed by former church member Davina Kelly, she went to Mr. Allen for spiritual counseling in November 2001. At the sessions, he would talk to her and assign her biblical passages. If she didn’t read them, she would be punished, she said.


Ms. Kelly, a 34-year-old mother of three, said Mr. Allen then gave her a Bible and asked her to turn to passages such as the one that yielded the phrase “spare the rod, spoil the child.”


“It ended up being a lot of Scripture on spanking for the most part – parents disciplining their children,” she said in a February interview. “When he had me read them, it became obvious he meant for it to be spanking me.”


The Dallas Morning News typically does not publish the names of sexual assault victims. Ms. Kelly said she wanted to come forward because she has nothing to hide.


After the third meeting, she said, Mr. Allen told her to grab her ankles and swatted her once with a green wooden paddle.


“I felt a bit confused,” she said. “Afterward, he hugged me, told me he loved me. He just wanted me to obey.”


The paddling escalated from there, she said, with Mr. Allen ordering her to pull down her jeans and then her underwear. Ms. Kelly said she was hesitant but believed so devoutly in Mr. Allen’s power that she viewed it as a spiritual father/daughter relationship.


“I looked at him as a man of God, my pastor,” she said. “I just revered him. I always thought he was hearing from God.”


In addition to being a church member, Ms. Kelly volunteered cleaning the church. After Mr. Allen’s wife died in 2003, she also started cleaning his house.


Around March or April 2005, Mr. Allen made sexual advances and eventually added sex as part of her punishment, she said.


Ms. Kelly eventually sought help and left the church in September 2005. But she said she didn’t call police because she was afraid.


“He had literally put his hand around my throat and said that if I ever told anybody, he would hurt me,” she said.


Ms. Kelly isn’t alone in making the allegations.


According to a 1983 Fort Worth police report, a 21-year-old woman said she had contacted Mr. Allen about voodoo and he had promised to bring her an antidote that she could use while bathing.


But after he came to her house to talk to her one day, she blacked out, and she believed she had either been hypnotized or drugged, the report said. The woman alleged that Mr. Allen paddled her, sodomized her with a club and raped her.


Mr. Allen was arrested in a candle, incense and herb shop where he worked and was indicted on felony sexual assault charges. But the case was dismissed after Mr. Allen passed a polygraph test and the woman stopped responding to messages from the detective.


Stan Broome, an Irving lawyer representing the women, said he plans to file other lawsuits but hasn’t been able to because Shiloh Institutional Church filed for bankruptcy a week after the first lawsuit was filed, barring any further lawsuits.


Mr. Broome said that the allegations span a 25-year period and that one woman was 13 when her abuse allegedly started. Three or four of the women filed complaints with the Church of God in Christ and met with church representatives, he said.


“We’re glad that future victims may be protected, but we don’t understand why the church, since they had full knowledge this was going on, didn’t take action sooner,” Mr. Broome said.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
June 8, 2007, 12:28

I agree completely Sandy, that just because this information has been found out about this Pastor, doesnt mean that what is written is wrong, everyone has something that could be found to place against if people really searched it out. Even the most respected. No one is without error in some shape or form and thats the beauty of the grace of God, He still speaks through us and uses us for his purposes. D


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