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Concrete Vs Abstract

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Myfanwe
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 01:01

One thing I have learned in all of my debates about the Bible and Homosexuality, is that the Bible can be made to say just about anything one wants it to say, and yet, the Spirit says only the truth.


That sounds really simple and easy to get, but then you find out that what the Spirit says is truth for one person, might actually be different to what is true for another. This is a complexity in God that I have never managed to fathom and so I have just come to accept.


When people tell me that there cannot be two truths, I have no answer. When people tell me “We can’t both be right.” I have no answer either.


I can only hold up my two empty hands and say that in a human economy, we can’t both be right, but maybe in God’s economy we can?


We want things to be concrete, graspable, easy to understand and live with, whereas I think that much of Scripture, and all of God, is abstract and difficult to understand.


There is an illustration in the Gospel of John of how one thing can be true/applicable to one person and not to another:


Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.

John 20:18-22 (Emphasis mine)


Here, Jesus has clearly given one instruction to Peter, and indicates that another instruction may apply to John. And Jesus reminds Peter that His instructions to John are not Peter’s concern. Peter’s only concern is to “Follow me.”


If this is too deep and makes no sense, I blame it on an excess of chocolate and insufficient sleep. 😆


Just putting it out there.


I am reminded of the words of Shakespeare’s Hamlet: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”


Our knowledge of God and his will is limited and tempered by our human minds and we cannot begin to fathom his thoughts. Maybe, in God’s ‘philosophy’ two different and seemingly opposing views can in fact be right. I think God is big enough to be able to do that, and big enough, certainly to treat each person as an individual with an individual life path, plan, and mission.


Blessings,



bec_oz
 
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 07:53

I don’t think this is too deep and it makes perfect sense…to me 🙂


I’m so glad you posted about this as I have been thinking the same for quite some time – I think you hit the nail on the head with people being individuals with our own life/plans/missions etc


I’m reminded of the old ‘Well, Gods plans never change’ talk…but how any human can claim to know what Gods plan is for someone else is beyond me. We were created to be individuals right down to such specifics as no two people having the same fingerprint – we accept our physical differences but why not our spiritual? – why should following and seeking out God be any different/less individualised?


I know for myself God has given me a conscious, a ‘path’ I guess and a standard that he holds me to [which I am forever failing at hehe] and wants me to follow – I know this is not some huge revelation that the whole of humanity must now live by just because it works [or should work] for me – that’s just silly – I see God alive and kicking in people that follow a completly different path to me – and live in ways that I know God doesn’t want me to – but I know we both can be right [in the way we live and what we believe] because we are following Gods individual call on our lives – how can we possibly do anything more?


I dunno – did that make sense?



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 10:48

I know for myself God has given me a conscious, a ‘path’ I guess and a standard that he holds me to [which I am forever failing at hehe] and wants me to follow – I know this is not some huge revelation that the whole of humanity must now live by just because it works [or should work] for me – that’s just silly – I see God alive and kicking in people that follow a completly different path to me – and live in ways that I know God doesn’t want me to – but I know we both can be right [in the way we live and what we believe] because we are following Gods individual call on our lives – how can we possibly do anything more?



Hey I did it, I quoted woohoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀

I had to enable the bbcode for the post, just by accident discovered it, well probably guided 😉


Yes, Bec I agree with you, we all have our own calling and far out I have no desire to be what many people are and do, I’d just bum out very quickly, happy like you to follow what God wants for me. I mean theres a corporate call, to believe, pray, worship, be thankful………..etc then theres our own call, I remember Sy Rogers using the finger print as an example about 4yrs ago, it was a great example and message. (just my thoughts too)



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 11:29

So…. who can guess what I am going to say? 😆


I want to state quite clearly that there is no such thing as two truths which opose each other. If I was to say that Mr Rudd was prime minister and you were to say that Mr Howard is only one of us can be right! There is an objectve truth to that matter.


Obviously faith and God and plans for ones life are more subjective than who the Prime Minister is so perhaps its not a fair example. I can’t help but get the impression that people reject alot of the (debatably communal) rules in the bible because it suits them not because they know that God wants them to follow a different set. It becomes a bit of a guessing game and our selfish side always wins. Perhaps God does articulate our own individual theologies to us over our lifetime and we are not called to one degree of morality who am I to say? But why even have the bible if spirituality is such a subjective experience?


One of the most amazing things about the bible is the fact that events, theories and lessons from thousands of years ago, lived in completly diffeent contexts are still applicable to us today. Don’t get me wrong I don’t mean literally! I don’t want somebody to hold my hands above my head for days so America can win the Iraq war, I seriously doubt it woul;d make a difference. But the lesson ‘rely on God’, ‘God is in control not you’ still holds emphasis.


The bible as a generalisation depicts God’s relationshp with mankind from beggining to end. If the lessons written thousands of years ago still resonate in our relationship with God now then it must be concluded that there are some similarities. If you conclude that indeed we are all called to rely on God and he is in charge like moses had to learn then that becomes a universal truth, one that applies to everyone in every context. Are we as Christians seriously going to go around saying that “no we don’t need God all the time and sometimes he isn’t in control”? I doubt it. Some things apply to us ALL and that is what defines us as Christians. Whether homosexuality falls into that category is a post for another day.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 11:57

Yeh, what I agree on is that also, that there are some things applicable to all across the board no doubt……then their is personal stuff, like ministry or work or family, our giftings, talents etc……..there is no way I could do what anyone on this post does, just not in me, even if I gave it my best shot it would be half assed in comparison because its not me, not my talent not my call. But if God asks me to do something off the cuff, because he asked, he has provided, so it will be ok as I have experienced before but if its my own just willy nilly decision, not often I can pull it off with success. Dunno just my opinion. On second thoughts, sometimes just taking a massive chance or leap can prove fruitful, gotta watch which wind blows from me gob sometimes. wink



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
November 27, 2007, 12:15

so sandy…..what do we do then with the ‘biblical’ truth that once was but is now consider to be error.


i dont think i need to list them all…..I’m sure you are familiar with them.


I’m not trying to be smart…….just wondering how you deal with that. I’ve been in Christian circles since 1969 (he says pulling the age card 😯 )……and I could create a list a mile long.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 13:06

Well to me biblical error is an oxymoron, I’m not sure whether that is pious nor naieve. Certainly people make errors about the bible, but the bible itself in its objective form as God wishes it to be read? Zero error.


I have only been a Christian about eighteen months so my list is possibly not quite as substantial. The way people deal with it is to assume that they are not in error. There is an anon quote that says “there are three sides to every story, your side, their side and the truth” there is some relevance in that idea. Perhaps when we realise that perviously we have been in error we see the whole thing more as a learning experience than a complete 180. I have got a whole lot of stuff wrong. The stupidest mistake I ever made was to reject homosexuality because other people told me I should. I made a HUGE decison based on the face value of the bible and other more mature Christians opinions. While I am glad I made the decisions I did if I could do it over my motives for doing them would be totally different.


The funny thing about it is we assume that God will look at our lives, actions, beliefs and behaviours in the same way that we percieve other peoples from the outside. Yet God knows whats in our heads 24/7, he knows our motives for doing things. Personally I believe that it is these motives that count for more to God. If we live lives that in our heart are truely meant to honour God, and we do belive sincerely that we have interpreted section x correctly then even if that interpretation proves faulty our motives are still pure because we are using our understanding in the here and now to honour God, and he knows that.


Does that answer your question? Maybe I interpreted it wrong 😆



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
November 27, 2007, 13:41

yes you are on the right track.


I think i’ve said this before….i really dont have a problem with people choosing to believe that the bible is the divine, infallible inerrant word of god….what i do have a problem with is people putting their own human interpretations on it and telling me they are speaking on behalf of god as they now know the truth. From history we know that is thwart with problems.


BTW…..I dont put you in that category Sandy



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 14:02

It amazes me what makes people think they have heard specifically from God to the point of special revelation, just for them to spread? shock one well known guy would say he often saw Jesus and they conversed shock and he has a huge following, he has passed away but claimed Jesus told him he would see his return, it didnt happen and yet people fob it off with excuses, he has some wonderful preaching with some things but far out he has some weird in other things.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 14:03

Possibly we all have human interpretations of Gods word, there is no way to prove that we have GODS interpretation and well thats a bit arrogant really isn’t it? I don’t think any of us have a complete understanding of God himself to even be able to begin to understand what he meant when he wrote the bible. If we don’t know God then how can we know what he means? The desire to WANT to know God, to WANT to hear his truth and to WANT to serve him faithfully probably means a whole lot more to him than whether we get it right or not. That is why the prayer “Lord I belive… help my unbelief” is so profound, our DESIRE to serve God and our MOTIVATIONS for doing so are the foundations of the Christian life if so and so belives that its ok to be gay and Christian then we’ll agree to disagree but that person has as much of a relationship with God as I do, if their belief is sincere and based on wanting to serve God. That is why Charles Morrow anoyed me so much, he was arrogant and assumed that other people were less than that Christian if they had different ideas. It always bugs me when people put ‘Christian’ in inverted commas like that, as if its a dirty word or something.


Anyway rant over. 😉


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