So the pressure is on! Since I declared to have a heart I will be very careful in how I respond so I don’t come off like some scary, fundamentalist, right-wing, fantic.
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Would I be right Sandy in saying you believe that a persons understanding of the scriptures, rather than any objective standard of right or wrong on the issue of sexuality is what matters?
It may be naieve of me but I believe the bible holds objective truth that is relevant to all people, in all cultures and across all time because the bible is the word of God Himself and God is transcendant. So, if Anthony interpretes the bible to say that homo-eroticism* is ok with God and I interperet it to mean that it isn’t then one of us has to be wrong, no matter how genuinely we believe what we do.
However, that said, we are talking about trying to understand the mind of God here, of God! Even I am not arrogant enough to claim to understand God, or know God. In the end, I believe that our motives and intentions count more to God than whether we wear hats in church or sleep with the same sex. A comitment to God, a desire to serve Him, to love Him is worth, I believe, more than a perfect understanding of the bible (though I wouldn’t turn that down given the option). The desire to glorify God is what makes a Christian. I don’t think anyone in the whole world will ever fully understand the bible, its difficult for a reason, because the less we know the more we need to rely on God and not ourselves. So we will get things wrong, its possible I am wrong about homosexuality. But I honestly and with the integrity that comes from honest study and an honest desire to serve God believe that it is wrong. My motives and intentions are to glorify God and I know that He knows that. It works both ways too, if someone honestly and with integrity believes it is ok. This is not to say that in the end someone isn’t wrong about it, someone has to be but being a Christian isn’t about knowing everything, its about working with what we do know in the here and now, working to glorify God in the best way we can.
There is a huge difference between willful sin and well… sin. Sin is a theoretical concept for us, sin is in the mind of God himself. Willful sin is the things we know we do wrong, in full knowledge of doing them, like lying or stealing. For me homo eroticism is willful sin, for Anthony it isn’t, despite whether it is sin in the mind of God or not. The intentions behind our actions define the way our relationship with God will be.
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If I’m wrong, how on earth did your church find your views on homosexuality ‘too liberal’ to be accepted… Unless ofcourse they were like the exclusive bretheren, in which case they probably threw you out for reaching the age of 18 without being married or having your first child
The main issue with the church was over change from homosexual to heterosexual. They believed I should persue it, and for good reason too, their arguments made alot of sense. God does not want us to struggle unduly with sin, change would mean that I would not be tempted to sin (in that respect) and therefor be a better follower. All of this is true, absolutly and I have no real opinion on whether change works or not.
Really, when it comes down to it, my counter-arguments were/are simply prejudices. I don’t want to change not because I believe it wont work but because the thought of marriage and children… of spending my life with a man makes we want to grab the nearest fork and start digging for China. I was also raped by a few men, and well to put it mildly the only experience I have had with men and sex is far from plesant. I just don’t want to change, I would rather struggle.
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I was drawn to the thought that at the end of the day the only theology which mattered was that of Grace and all other things were relative
Ohh can we please have another relitivism/objectivism discussion? These are my favourites! Maybe its not about answers, who is right and who isn’t. But about what we do with those answers and wether we firmly believe them in the first place. God wants us to love him, desire Him, glorify Him and spend our lives getting to know Him. Perhaps the desire to know God is more importnat than knowing God, the desire to serve Him more important than the service.
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like the line we draw around what is an acceptable contextualisation of a passage and what isn’t, we can make the bible say or not say whatever we like, there has to be some kind of line, but where is that line??
Maybe that is where intentions come in again. Are we interpreting this passge in this way because thats what we are hoping it will say, or are we really trying to figure out what God is telling us? Perhaps the line that is drawn is different for all of us, its the line between self-service when interpreting the bible and service to God.
You are totally cute Orfeo with the whole “Sandy dearest” thing. Kind of reminds me of my first girlfriend, we would swap notes in class and she would always start with “Sandy dearest…” though I think yours was possibly with a more exasperated tone Unless you have something you want to share with me
* I don’t use the term homo-eroticism because it is loaded and sexualised. I use it because it denotes an erotic activity (whatever that may be) with someone of the same sex. This is different to homosexuality which is not sinful per se.
Ok… so let me preface this by totally apologising for like putting all those words in your mouth… I only realise now how presumptuous most of that post really was… haha- totally showing my blonde hair right now :P— but you must forgive blondes… Even David with his blonde hair had his moments… but God still loved him :)…
I also want to Thankyou so much Sandy for making the effort to address my ideas so thoroughly- I think your right Orfeo, I think Sandy you and I share a fair bit of common ground on this issue=
At the risk of putting further words in your mouth, I think its clear we both agree that a person needs to sincerely believe, without trying to twist Gods word for their own personal gain, that they are either free to pursue relationships or should pursue Celibacy… I think though if we bring the argument to the level of a persons intentions are what counts, we still encounter the same problem regarding the objectivity thing– I may, with perfectly good intentions read certain old-testament passages about adultery and following that reading, decide to go and murder a known paedophile to uphold God and his word, and to protect my community and family from a potentially dangerous influence- would I still be justified in my actions because my intentions in reading the scriptures were pure? I don’t think so at all- so where is the line that seperates me with all the good intentions in the world, ‘misreading’ the bible and going and having a relationship with a man, but still being justified in it, from this other guy??
On the other hand, there is the alternative of going to knock on that puritains door- throw out my ‘corrupted’ NIV bible, put on my black and white suit and get in on some hard core puritain action!!and in doing so becoming a radical biblical literalist- but even then, I’m post modern enough to believe that even ‘literal’ readings change- plus, I’m Not sure what he might say when he finds out what my favourite festival in the city is 😛
Argh! This kind of problem really messes with my mind– but you know what, at the end of the day maybe I try too hard to think God into a comfortable human box of theology… Perhaps his grace and mercy are too big for such boxes… and when all is said and done thats the grace, mercy and love I throw myself on, regardless of my human flaws, human limitations and general falleness… His power is manifested in my weaknesses-
Chris
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