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Is he/she, gay/lez/trans?....Gees you would never know it!!!

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magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
January 16, 2008, 09:22

How many times have any of us heard that comment before, either about ourselves or someone else!! shock


What is it that people are referring to, what is it that seems to people to be the obvious cues that one is either of the above? Do people have an expectation that you will have something odd or quirky about you that will give away your orientation or disposition or is the world so used to the stereotyping or the fact that maybe we are meant to be “different” in every way that we are all expected to behave in a certain manner or recognised pattern?………Why do people think that what you do sexually has to have any bearing on your outward appearance? I guess this is where one could ask the question, is my orientation who I am or just a part of the whole of who I am? Im reflecting on the statement Leece made also that “Heterosexuality is not normal, just more common. We are all normal.”


January 16, 2008, 11:54

A lot of the straight world are locked into stereotypes about gay people. Gay men are effeminate, weak, talk funny. Lesbians are butch, wear men’s clothes etc. When gay men and lesbians don’t conform to these stereotypes people find it hard to believe that we are gay. I would be a millionaire if I got a dollar every time a straight person said to me, “But you don’t look/act it”.


I find the whole gaydar thing silly too. Sure there may be some people who it is easy tell they are gay ecause they conform to the above stereotypes but most don’t. I do notice that gay men will hold eye contact longer than straight men and sometimes this gives me an indication as to whether someone might be gay but it would be foolish to bank on your assumptions.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
January 16, 2008, 12:41

I agree with Mark 😀 Kind of loving being able to say that actually.


I don’t think there is some kind of psyhic intuition where you can tell someone is gay or not gay people too rest on the stereotypes and many conform to the stereotypes because they see ‘gay’ as an indentity and a sub-culture where to ‘fit in’ you have to look an act a certain way. If ‘gay’ is as normal as many state then it makes sense that there is alot of diversity. In the end I don’t think who you are attracted to has any impact on your dress sense or the way you behave… apart from the obvious.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
January 16, 2008, 14:59

I like the quote leece put in her post recently.


heterosexuality is not normal, its just more common. We are all normal.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
January 16, 2008, 22:54

Or if we want to get really philospohical about it ‘normal’ is a construct that changes over time and space. What’s ‘normal’ in a church is hardly ‘normal’ in a nightclub. I think ‘normal’ is often founded in the same way most sterotypes are, people look at what is most common and classify it as normal. Also ‘normal’ depends on who you talk to doesn’t it? My dad thinks going shopping on his day off is perfectly normal whereas I can’t think of anything worse. Everyone has an individual contruction of what they see as normal which is derved from their background and belief system.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
January 17, 2008, 10:30

Ok lets look at normal on human terms as a human being. Just because I have certain likes different to other people and people look down on it doesnt make me abnormal. I guess the “normal” we might be talking about here if I got the gyst of Leece’s discussions correct is based on the normal where one is outside of being judged.

Too many people judge what is different to what they perceive to be different to them or what they wouldnt do or personally like as “abnormal” and they look down upon it or snub it or trash it or throw the person into judgement and criticism.


We are all “normal” to me encompasses on a human level what I believe where Leece was coming from was that, we are all in need of love, acceptance for who we are and as humans all are either searching for basically the same thing, a purpose, a reason to live, a need to be loved and encouraged for who we are outside of what we do or appear to others to be. We all bleed the same red blood, we all hurt when we are cut, we all get hungry etc…. their is something as humans that we can all be classed in the same group as in being “normal”. No one has the right to brand anyone a freak, unless you have walked a mile in someone elses shoes, no has the right to judge anybody, what we wouldve done in someone else’s position we will never truly know and usually if not for the grace of God thank goodness we will never know. Jesus hated the judgement of others, like the boy who was blind and the people were debating which parent sinned that the boy was the way he was and they were having a field day doing it, Jesus said neither, he became an opportunity for Jesus to glorify God by healing him and he even said so. Jesus understands the whys and the background of where things come from, we do not, we can only ever assume and sometimes even in science we never really get the full picture, so what makes us think we know it all and then act on that in ways that hurt others. (I hope the gyst of what I am trying to say is coming across 8) )



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
January 17, 2008, 10:51

So what your saying is humanity = normality… It’s a very politically correct idea and it may hold on a biological level where we are left with no choice as to whether we have red (or actually blue) blood or feel pain. What about on issues were we do have a choice? What about criminal behaviour for instance, is that ‘normal’? Most would say that no its not, if it was then more people would be breaking laws and the justice system would colapse, how can you prosecute someone for being normal?


Normal doesn’t exist outside of our individual conciousness. Your right in saying we define what normal is based on your own body image, values and belief systems. Because all these things differ between people ‘normal’ as a benchmark for behaviour doesn’t really exist on an objective all encompassing level… unless you connect it to a belief system like Christianity whereby the individual may BELIEVE this to be so.


Even though ‘normal’ doesn’t really exist society still capitalises on the idea, thats why discrimination exists, thats how this whole conversation began. Our laws conform us and tell us what is ‘normal’ behaviour. Fashion executives tell us what is ‘normal’ to wear, dietitions, what to eat and so on. Lets face it society does have an image of what normal really is and its so unreachable that the mere concept drives our consumer culture towards more and more consumption in persuit of this pipe dream.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
January 17, 2008, 12:23

Yes thats right, society and just life on planet earth dictates what is normal what is not. I guess when it comes to platforms like F2B and such and christianity, we try and by pass what the “world” or “media forms” would have us believe is normal.

Yes on a biological and basic human need level we are all the same but as you say then there is a behavioral element. I guess thats where I love the Christianity that Jesus has brought into the picture, he understood our most basic needs as humans and he came to fulfil that and show us how to fulfil that and how to try and curb the behavioural aspect thereof. ( we are yet to follow in his footsteps correctly in any aspect of church life)


The way be all behave differently as human beings is no surprise to God and he understands why it is so, but in understanding he has given us a way to deal with that aspect of ourselves. So I guess in Gods terms “normal” will probably encompass us all at his understanding of what a human is and is capable of doing and its the guidelines as I know you think also that determines what is normal behaviour and what is not and that normal behaviour ecompasses some moral codes and basic everyday law that we have in place in society.


Its just unfortunate that as humans, we dont see beneath the surface of a human being and it is not automatic for us to do so, life is so superficial and its become so and probably has been so since the word dot that we end up forgeting that beneath the outside packaging their is a human being who is deserving of all the basic things that we all need, even God agrees on that.

He sees beneath the actions of a criminal, he sees beneath the makeup of a super model etc….Its just a shame we dont and so banish and brand people and just about oust them from society. Sure their are boundaries and thats where law as in state law etc comes into it but if a citizen is not breaking the law, then why still be ousted for being different, it seems as humans we have really learnt nothing and the ball of judgement will continue as it always has. But thank God for safe places for those who get treated in such a way that they can go to, its just a shame that the church isnt one of them in many places but things are changing.


Just touching back on the topic, the media can be blamed for heightening the stereotypes in every aspect, whether that be gay or straight and as Anthony has touched on in another post, the pressure of certain communities to behave in a certain manner but its up to us whether we follow suit or not. So in a way its a mix of us conforming out of need of acceptance to a degree and media play that influences how people see us.


This is quite a massive topic actually shock and could easily be taken into a psychology lecture to discuss the ins and outs of. So what I have written is just a scrape of where any of us could take this without turning it into a book of many volumes lol



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
January 17, 2008, 14:26

This is why the foundation of Jesus’ teaching “love others as you love yourself” was so astounding at the time and is now as well. But the whole world isn’t Christian and they don’t conform to that same standard, in fact many Christians and all of us at times don’t conform to it.


There is a difference between defining something as normal and treating somone with love because there is nothing wrong with their behaviour and reciognising the faults but loving them as well. Jesus would have told the criminal and the supermodel (if she was materialist and egotistic) to give up their ways but that never meant he loved them any less.


The reason people hate Christians (and often hate unfortunatly is the appropriate word) is because we say there is absolutes. Christ was God, He died to save our sins, etc, etc. When anyone commits to an absolute there are absolute ways of appropriate behaviour that follow. If Christ is God then the only right course of action is to worship Him and do as He says. Maybe this isn’t really a discussion over what is normal rather what is right. I totally get why people can’t stand Christians, we don’t conform to what the world tells us is right. Things like feminism, money, sex, potmodernism, sucsess, image and so on are not of prime importance you only have to walk around New York here in the US to see the half-naked women on billboards, actual women walking around with boob jobs, bookstores filled with books on how to be rich and sucsessful. There is nothing wrong with being rich or sucessful but the ideal that you need to step on toes to get to the top at any cost is hardly Christian.


Normal is the way God intended things to be and that brings back images of Eden, since we won’t be getting that back until Jesus returns we must deal with the corupt world we do have. Maybe it isn’t about us all being normal but about us all being abnormal because we all sin and the different things we deal with are repersentations of that same sin.


January 26, 2008, 16:50

I like the quote leece put in her post recently.


heterosexuality is not normal, its just more common. We are all normal.


Or from a different perspective, we are all abnormal. We all have our different traits and characteristics that make us unique.


I’m a special ed teacher and teach kids with autism. I read a paper by a specialist a few years ago that suggests we are all autistic to a degree. It’s just that in some it’s more obvious.


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