Mercy Ministries & Gloria Jeans!

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March 25, 2008, 17:56

agree to disagree, i shake the dust off my feet

Shantih Shantih Shantih
Joined in 2008
March 25, 2008, 18:04

That’s probably for the best. I don’t mean to sound self-righteous or to impose on the conversation, it’s just that I can see where this is going and it may not end well…

Joined in 2008
March 26, 2008, 10:09

Firstly, no offense Shantih, but if you’re not going to contribute to the discussion topic, perhaps avoid saying anything at all. There’s nothing wrong with Anistemi. michelle, myself and others having a healthy discussion of our opinions.

Ok, so in response to your last comment to me Anistemi…. By saying ‘context dependent’ i was not refering to differences in Gods or differences in the nature of God (ie favouritism or selectionism), i was simply highlighting the very objective fact that based on the country you live, the culture will vary (included in this culture is SES, wealth and other financial culture issues), thus to make a direct comparison between Sydney and say Kenya (for eg) is not right. God expects us to be generous with what we have… to someone in sydney this may be a $200 weekly tithe, to someone in Kenya this may be a ration of rice… who knows. so what i was referring to, is that wealth is very context dependent.

Now back to Hillsong, Can i ask you a few questions (but you have to be 100% honest) ….

1) Have you ever been to Hillsong?

2) If so how often?

3) If not, how have you formed your opinions about Hillsong (is it the media? friends experiences? family experiences? gut feeling?)

Also, i cannot agree with you more in your final statement, where you said

“This doesn’t mean I don’t or I do drive Mercedes Benz, Having Mansion, Yacht, Billions or Millions of dollar in bank account. I am rather not boasting of material possession I rather boasting of having my salvation and Christ in me. I rather preach about God salvation and everlasting love, let others come to Christ for who he is, what he preach and his message”

The thing is, I believe that the key leaders of Hillsong would also completely agree with you too. The difference is that they may very well have these things. and if so, thats GREAT. And if our God is one of blessing, why shouldnt each of us be able to WORK HARD and expect GREAT RESULTS, and from these results we should be generous!

One other point, which i touched on last comment, is that Money especially in our country is a very valuable resource to have. And resources can be extremely helpful in furthering the kingdom of God. So in my opinion, the more money a church (or even an individual) has, the more opportunities they have to further the kingdom. Now at first, one might say people like Brian Housten arn’t using this resource to fund the kingdom, they are only using it to buy mercedes etc… however what most people will miss, is the very generous giving that people like Brian do. Brian Housten should not be EXPECTED to tithe and give more than (proportionally) the average joe blogs in the congregration (despite the fact that he probably does). So yeah… my point is…. making big bucks is not a bad thing (is actually a very good thing), however if a christian was to make big bucks and not give generously back to God in various ways, then yes i see this as problematic..,. however this is NOT the case in hillsong leadership.

sorry to write an essay (can you tell im procrastinating from uni work? ha)

Joined in 2006
March 26, 2008, 10:22

Posting Guidelines

ALLOW OTHERS A POINT OF VIEW OR OPINION……….that’s what makes this world a wonderful place. Remember that we are all at different places in our journeys…………the ultimate place for us all is peace with God, ourselves and others.

9. We all have our triggers that can be set off by what someone says. If a particular post upsets you and makes you angry. There are several things you can do. (a) ignore it (b) not reply immediately, settle down, then post intelligently and thoughtfully instead of emotionally. Do not attack the other person or (c) Do everything in (b) and PM the person to make the discussion private instead of on the forum. Proverbs says. “A soft answer turns away wrath”

10. Enjoy your time with us and have fun.

Joined in 2008
March 26, 2008, 10:30

cheers magsdee

Shantih Shantih Shantih
Joined in 2008
March 26, 2008, 10:35

[sighs] Okay, Luke, you have a point – perhaps I shouldn’t get involved full stop. I know I sound really righteous right now and I know you think I’m trying to impose on a conversation I have no right to comment on, but as it were, I’m no stranger to emotive internet debates, and this is just what I think.

All I’m trying to say is this: I have no problem with healthy discussion, but I know how quickly discussions like this, involving high-strung, go-nowhere opinions, can turn into a debacle – even if nothing is intended to go awry. I am no fool, I know you will continue regardless of what I say, I’m just giving my advice and my warning.

[Takes leave, exits thread]

March 29, 2008, 01:10

Now back to Hillsong, Can i ask you a few questions (but you have to be 100% honest) ….

1) Have you ever been to Hillsong?

2) If so how often?

3) If not, how have you formed your opinions about Hillsong (is it the media? friends experiences? family experiences? gut feeling?)

Luke_18 I have already said, agree to disagree… I will say something, but will not respond to your question personalised to me in public.

The thing is, I believe that the key leaders of Hillsong would also completely agree with you too. The difference is that they may very well have these things. and if so, thats GREAT. And if our God is one of blessing, why shouldnt each of us be able to WORK HARD and expect GREAT RESULTS, and from these results we should be generous!

I have no objection to hard work and being blees, every one who work hard expect to harvest their labour. I never object living comfortably, as have said many times money should not be a primary objective. May it financial, material or products (rice, wheat, cows, fish… ) gives and tithe should be honesty given and in discretion, not expose and enforce like a law with expectation in return, not being preach in Church by saying ‘if you give a fold you it will come back to you hundred fold’ that is imposing gives with expectation. The notion of gives enforce by law, can found in many places in old testament so does the warning given by post and pre exilic prophet about it, about where one heart belongs, Christ fulfil those warning. Yes… modern world need money (people in modern world need money), Australian, Europe, Africa, Asia all need money, may it be in industrialised country or third world country all need money, very few places today barter trade. Businesses, organisation, Churches, individual, project, charity etc all need money, but money should not be seen as a primary objective of being Christian in my opinion. We all want money; the more we have it the more we wanted, like an addiction (to me).

My concern, as I have said many times is prosperity doctrine, evangelist in god name in that context, how many people receive Christ with the expectation to be rich? How many of them later disappointed? I am not pretending to know what drive people to Christ and what is the status of one spiritual believe, I was in that shoes “advocating and promoting prosperity Gospel”. I met and knew many numbers of those who disappointed later backsided, and these greatly disturbing to me, these people later went around and share their experiences (experiences and word mouth is number one marketing tool). These days I often ask my self what image I portray to people surrounding me? Since I am Christian and his spirit lives in me, I am his ambassador to people surrounding me.

To be Christian or receive Christ is not enforced, is a choice, Christ gave us the choice to believe or not, to follow him or not, to walk his path or not… a freedom to choose.

Luke_18 you choose to walk your path and what you belief, I choose to walk my path and my belief so does everyone else.

Joined in 2008
March 29, 2008, 10:31

righto… yeah maybe your right… we’ll have to call a stalemate, because clearly we both have different experiences with this issue. Just be sure not to bag out someone or something without propper understanding… because as you said ‘word of mouth is the most effective marketing tool’ … thus spreading negative rumours will do a lot of damage (which in this case may be salvations).

also, i think that anyone who becomes a christian with the hope that it will make them rich are completely foolish. if i put my self in a non-churched person’s shoes i would actually be thinking the very opposite (ie becoming a christian will make me poor). so yeah if people really do (like you say) become a christian with the hope of becoming rich…then im very shocked! how strange.

cool. thats the last of it for me.

March 29, 2008, 12:58

This is an excerpt from an article.

If Christ returned to Earth for an Easter vacation, would he be hated, abused, and murdered? Most likely …

Most of us know Christ as a long-haired peace activist whose soul would be sickened by the world’s corruption – America’s political corruption in particular. “Blessed are the peacemakers” Jesus said…”Turn the other cheek…Love thy neighbor.”

Such ideals, contradictions and rebuttals are the “Christian” right wing’s worst nightmare. Self-proclaimed Christians who are selfishly entertained by power, nationalism, and war are a disgrace to Christianity. These are the same ignorant saps who believe Jews are doomed to Hell, but love a Zionist Israel. These so-called Christians are bound for the lake of fire (assuming there is one) and some of them, sadly, don’t even know it.

Technically speaking, the Pope is also bound for the lake of fire (unless of course he stays up to date with his confessions …) because he has become mesmerized by riches which should otherwise, by Jesus’ teachings, be given to the poor. The Vatican is like any corporate whore, except worse, because they claim to better our existence, when they are merely exploiting people and their beliefs for their own wealth and so forth.

Almost every Pope in history has been as corrupt as any politician (i.e. slave trade, support for Hitler and Nazi Germany, etc.). Christ said, “Judge a tree by the fruit that it bears; by its fruit will you know whether the tree be good or evil,” and not by what they say. The facts speak for themselves. The papacy is the wealthiest business empire on Earth. They obtain money by deception, from the poor, for example, to buy shares, property, paintings, gold, precious stones and pearls. Didn’t God apparently say not to store up treasures on Earth (Matt. 6 v 19-21)? Yet what do the Popes do? They take money from the poor and give it to the rich, hoarding it in the Vatican’s vaults (creating mass poverty) – the exact opposite of what Christ said His followers must do. I know, you’re probably saying that the Vatican is just “keeping an eye on all that stuff” or “keeping it safe”, but that is irrelevant to what Christianity stands for – capitalism, tradition, or heritage preservation doesn’t necessarily or magically make it “right”.

More than 95% of the world’s wealth and resources are in the hands of less than 5% of the world’s population and every night, two-thirds of the world’s population goes to sleep hungry. How has this come to pass and be accepted as “normal”? It would be very wrong to believe that our reason for living is simply to serve a group of people, who have exalted themselves into positions where they can hoard wealth and have “authority” over others for the bettering of themselves only.

Whatever happened to the traditional Laws of Freedom – the Ten Commandments (and common sense, for that matter)? They directly contradict materialistically rich rulers of this world claiming to be of a group known as Christianity. What it contains, if practiced, would keep us all, as one race, at peace. Religion can be an effective tool in further evaluating the injustice, environmental destruction and mass-oppression that is (and has been) happening in the world.

National leaders’ disregard for the people (i.e. the federal allowance of the 9/11 attacks), attacks on people of color (racism), attacks on nations [most notably those with wealth (i.e. opium & oil)], attacks on humans of the same gender who love each other, attacks on youth who enjoy sex, etc. All that, in the name of God? All of these attacks which involve the over-sight of “Christians” would leave Jesus himself horrified. So it’s not that religion is not needed – some would argue that religion is needed more than ever – it’s just that religion has been disgustingly manhandled to the point that it has been made the excuse for chaos (it’s not…man is the cause of chaos, and religion is the so-called solution to chaos in the first place). Jesus came to be viewed as Divine because he spoke eloquently for a gracious, loving God – he did not speak of the God that George W. Bush claims to know. Karl Rove, Tom DeLay, George Bush and their corporate-fundamentalist dependants speak for a very different kind of God – one at war with the Deity described by Christ – yes, that’s right, another war that you might not have been aware of.

Bush’s and Rove’s “master” must be defined by hate, greed, intolerance and hypocrisy. Christ kicked the money-mongers out of the temple, told the rich to give their wealth to the poor, and to follow him. Bush is unable to do that and has given no sign to ever do so; therefore, he is unable to speak for Christianity beyond a politically devious point of view. Today’s Republicans have enshrined wealth, power and greed. Christ spoke of a God of compassion and joy…not the God that our corrupt leaders, including the Pope, seem to have found behind the scenes. In fact, from a religiously argumentative point of view, we could say they speak from Satan and have given no sign of detouring from their crusades.

Today’s “religious” right-wingers worship meanness of spirit and a greed-driven, war-loving totalitarianism without respect for nature (which includes the people). The only way to salvation, they say, is their own unilateral way – otherwise, you’re a terrorist, a liberal divorced from reality, or something else not pleasant and supposedly subject to ridicule. I hope you interpret my words as unpleasant, because that’s what I’ve aimed for (war), to remind you of all the wars around us.

Tecumseh, the great Shawnee spirit-warrior, allegedly shouted in the early 1800s: “When Jesus Christ came upon the Earth, you killed him. The son of your own God. And only after he was dead did you worship him and start killing those who would not.”

If Christ came back to organize against US political actions, there would be an unfathomable amount of hate-speak directed from the more notable Republicans. O’Reilly would not believe the Easter thing and more than question, or make fun of, a “peace prophet”; these so-called Christians cannot even come close to handling the very things they preach – are you reminded of the term blasphemy? If Jesus persisted, and his followers grew in numbers, Republicans wouldn’t hesitate to kill him. Unrealistic scenario you say? Maybe so, but the Republicans in power of the US are even more unrealistic…I can guarantee that. They’d design a scandal, pin the blame on one measly terrorist or ethnic group, and pump out propaganda with the help of the media. Modern Republicans would go to great lengths in censoring an anti-war “Son of God”. There’d likely be rumors that Jesus was gay and a user of drugs. Why then, or how, can this be considered normal? Or can it at all?

Would Jesus stand for the slaughter of 100,000 or more Iraqis in his name for wealth and political gain (even if it is the only thing that seems idealistic)? What would Christ think about a president who supports the torture chamber and electric chair? What would Jesus, who despised hypocrisy, say about a Bush who scurries around to prolong the life of a brain-dead woman, but whom gleefully executed 150 people as governor and even more as president? How would Jesus cope with a “self-proclaimed Divinity” embracing the death, misery, poverty, and many other evil premises, of others? There are several million prisoners held in the US military and civilian gulag, a barbaric prison system that makes the Romans’ seem benign by comparison. What about systematic sexual abuse by both prison guards and Catholic priests? What about the wholesale slaughter of Iraqi children? What would Jesus say about gay marriage? “Love thy neighbor,” would be a fair assumption, regardless. Why is someone’s sexual preference the business of those who use Jesus’ name to prolong and promote bigotry and intolerance? 50 years ago, those same cynical haters claimed Biblical sanction for laws preventing people of different colors from marrying one another.

Hitler called Christ an Aryan supremacist. Now, the US elite use him to sell tyrannical, greed-driven, gay-hating, anti-abortion, anti-personal choice, war-loving hypocrisy (not to mention, election campaigns). There’s no way Bush could have made it this far in his endeavors without the blasphemous exploitation of Christianity which in turn duped us, “the sheep”. In fact, Bush would not have been able to become President had he not “found Jesus” after the exposure of his corrupt past.

Religion is the United States’ weakest link.

Easter should remind us that if Jesus returned to preach what he challenged the Romans with, particular Republicans would do to him what Pontius Pilate (the one who ordered Jesus’ crucifixion) did; they would ridicule him and then kill him.

This is the link to the article

March 29, 2008, 13:54

thus spreading negative rumours will do a lot of damage (which in this case may be salvations).

🙄 Salvation is freely given by Christ and does not depend or affected by any others issue and i dont think he gonna take it away, it usually us that assuming it… Salvation is without condition with simple Commandment, to love 🙂

Raskdog 🙂 🙂 🙂

That a beautiful example/article of people abuse Christ, abuse text and put their own priority first before God.

Those people are the same people using Christ name promoting their own agenda, as a result insult Christ, Insult his nature, and manipulate the message of Christ and Crucified Christ over and over again. They thought they glorified God but their, principle, doctrine; action is no way parallel to gospel and the message of Christ, In my opinion they glorify dualism; evil and themselves.

The prophesies that being foretold and forthtold by prophets in old testaments regarding the ungodliness are similar today if not the same ungodliness.

Christ lives to send the message, we crucified him and he dies for us, and we crucified him over and over again! I wonder how would he feel? Betryed?

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