Mr VB – Its always fun getting out my Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (hhmmm not sure thats the correct plural form there) and parallel translations and other such works….

and its SOOOOOO much easier these days than it was when I used to study it !!!! This new fangled thing called the internet – well I tell you….

🙂

Hi all.

in studying counselling we have come across discussions on the question of marriage.

Interestingly, the “modern concept” of marriage only originated in the 13th century of a church liturgical ceremony which was followed by verification by the state. Thus it is important to recognise that the “church wedding/ ceremony and vows” are not actually biblical. What is biblical is that the couple make complete and permanent commitments to each other usually before family/ community. This is the basis and foundational environment in Scripture for sexual intercourse and raising children.

ian

Just an interesting aside…When a Greek person today uses porneia, they often use it in the sense of being naughty. eg If a child is being naughty, a parent is likely to say "Don't be so porneia…(naughty)".

David

@Shadowboxer True. When I studied linguistics, a lecturer said that words are not like marbles but rather like blobs of plastecine.

@ Brunski You may have answered your own question in your post on 30 May.

True gay love is precious. Have you ever watched this gay mariage proposal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ2Wp6RdgDw

I may help to resolve it in your mind. (Get out the tissues).

All the best

David

I would like to see scholastic citations for this "Fornication, adultery, or homosexuality would be included in porneia"

The word porneia is actually a word that is not often used in classical Greek Texts.

Moulton-Milligan, in their Greek Lexicon say this about it , "Porneia, which is relatively rare in classical Greek originally stood for "prostitution".

And Thayer (Greek – English Lexicon of the New Testament) also Lists Prostitution as the meaning of the word AND I might add – cautions against interpreting it TOO widely (excepting for Adultery).

There is a BIG difference between Prostitution, Adultery and Pornography and is NOT substantiated by the Koine Greek lexicons.

Now Moulton-Milligan notes that in later contexts it denotes "illicit sexual relations" but Jumping from that to "It refers to any kind of intimate, sexual encounter apart from one’s marital partner." is still not supported and actually what an illicit sexual relation is – is to some degree actually cultural.

What are some examples of that we might relate to. Polygamy is now considered "illicit – even illegal" but God had no issues with Abraham, Solomon or David having many wives. Others include what age a girl can be married (the line between paedophilia and acceptability which varies in different countries and cultures of course) and how close to your family can you marry ( For example Marrying your cousin – According to Wikipedia – Such marriages are often stigmatized in the Western world, but marriages between first and second cousins nevertheless account for over 10% of marriages worldwide. They are particularly common in the Middle East, where in some nations they account for over half of all marriages.) Cousin marriages ARE biblical I might add but such relations are considered by many to be immoral (ESPECIALLY if children are produced due to the risks).

In fact – what often happens with this is a word is translated as "Sexual Immorality" BECAUSE the meaning isnt clear any more and SO people say – because – sex outside marriage is immoral – then Sexual Immorality means – sex outside marriage.

This is the fallacy of a circular definition – Its a sin because its sexual immorality. Its sexual immorality because its a sin.

BUT what actually is sexual immorality is – Prostitution – and particularly Temple prostition. That is clear. Anything else is added in my moderm cultural assumptions which ARENT in the original word. (And Im afraid just because our work pornagraphy comes from "porneia" in no way changes the meaning of the original word and there are many examples of such derived words meaning something different. Even words like pedophile – which is now a pejoritive term and is considered a heinious act – once meant anyone who wanted to make the world a better place for children. So looking at modern meanings is NO guide to what was meant when the word was written down 2000 years ago and ASSUMING a same or similar word has the same or similar meaning is a common mistake but it can be VERY wrong and totally alter the meaning of the sentence. Another example of this is the word Gay of course !).

Also the context of porneia does not support that sex outside marriage is always a sin. Adultery. Yes. Sex to worship idols Yes – If you read it as Sex in a Idolotrous context – then in fact many of the seeming contraditions across the bible fade away (a really good indication that you are NOT reading into it more than what was intended).

For a start Rahab was a prostitute and is given a place in honour in the bible. Nowhere is there condemnation of her career and in fact she is listed as an ANCESTOR of Jesus – a place of honour.

There are other biblical examples where sex outside of marriage IS considered OK – but I'll leave them for the reader to find. If you read the bible and look at the definitions – with out assuming it must mean something – many contradictions resolve themselves. I dont believe the bible contradicts itself so if it seems to – check your assumptions.

The other point to note here is WHAT IS marriage. Marriage is cultural. For the first thousand years of the Christian church – couples married themselves. There is record from the protestant reformation where they explicitly note marriage is NOT a christian sacrement and that the states need to manage it. There are records from the middle ages of same sex couples being married by the church. However – if its not a christian sacrement (and it wasnt until relatively lately in history) and if couples married themselves essentially (which is why the reformation pointed the states attention to it) then what is sex outside of marriage? Why would that matter to God (when for 000's of years couples just married themselves anyway).

So as with ALL OF THESE issues – a lot of thought needs to be given to definitions (both of the hebrew and greek) but also the english words we use – because when I say married – im actually referring to the Federal Marriage Act under australian law. Marriage in Australia – is different to marriage in say – Germany – where a church wedding has no legal meaning at all (as per the protestant reformation meaning) and you MUST marry in a registry office for it to have legal meaning.

Point is we all use these words – but if you are really worried about what the Bible says about these things (to the point of drawing lines of behaviour) – then you must define them carefully – because we often use the same word but mean something different (like the word Marriage) and you cant assume because we think now – its always been so.