Firstly, I apologise for starting yet another topic if this particular issue has already been discussed, I haven't seen it previously discussed yet, I didn't really go through EVERY discussion here as there are way too many! If it has been discussed perhaps, one of the mediators can simply transfer this to that particular thread (if that is possible) now before I start typing endlessly, let me get to the point of my post!

I have long been told, as I am sure many here have as well, that sex outside marriage is a great big sin, period! its a no no, the Bible condemns it, blah, blah, blah … I recently had a discussion with a fellow Christian who like me, is also single (I consider myself single as my current "relationship" is so complicated that I can't really call it a relationship) & she was clear on her firm belief that sex outside marriage is wrong! She believes that until she finds a man to marry, she cannot and will not be involved in any kind of sexual or intimate relationship because its "not God's will". I have long been told and believed myself that sex outside marriage is wrong (a sin) however, in recent years I have questioned that. Obviously & clearly the Bible condemns adultery, which is defined as, a sexual relationship where one or both partners are married to someone other than the one with whom they are having intercourse. Or another definition would be, anyone who is married engaging in sexual intercourse with someone other than his or her husband or wife. Which is pretty straight forward hence, the Bible condemns it. But how can a single man or woman commit Adultery? In order to commit Adultery, you need two people (a married couple).

But the argument that usually comes when talking about homosexuality is that the Bible condemns "fornication" & homosexuality fits under that banner. What exactly, does fornication mean? Most dictionaries say fornication means "any unlawful sexual intercourse" or "voluntarily sexual intercourse between to unmarried persons" Some Biblical Doctrinaires put it like this "A sexual act of idolatry. The sexual act of worship with a temple prostitute, whore, or harlot." My question is how is this related to homosexuality?

Can we say that, Fornication refers to homosexuality? Can the argument be simply that, a homosexual cannot commit Adultery but he or she can commit fornication?

Many Churches today have different definitions of fornication, but I think most would equate it with homosexuality to some degree. Would a man or woman who engages in sexual intercourse while being single, be committing the act of fornication? The other issue relating to Adultery is, if Adultery relates only too married couples, then seeing how homosexual marriage is still by enlarge illegal, then they cannot commit Adultery, what do other think?

Hey Brunski

Check out that link that Ann Maree posted…..

It raises some relevant questions to your post.

What actually is marriage ? The bible doesnt define it and through most of the bible – what they call and describe as marriage is now illegal. (Polygamy, Forced marriage etc).

Mariage is – and always has been a cultural thing. Jesus says to respect the authorities (and thus the law) and australian law recognises my partnership. (Especially Tax law – Joke) so I would suggest that any minister who does not recognise my partnership as valid – is disobeying the command that Jesus DID give – based on stuff from the old testament (no longer relevant) and from Paul (who said no one should marry, who never met Jesus and who used words over which the translation is a guess at best anyway – even though perfectly accurate words were available to him had he wanted to actually say what people who put words into his mouth suggest he says)

And this brings me to my next point.

If you actually want to know the meaning of a word – you need to look up what the original word actually was. (In the Greek or the Hebrew etc) – Then you need to look up that original word to know precisely what it was meant. Its often useful to know where that same word is used elsewhere (in the bible and in other contemporary works) and this will tell you how accurate the translation is…. Gesenius and Thayer are great references as a start (and a strongs concordance)

For example = Arsenokoites is only found used 77 times in ancient manuscripts overall – and 1 Cor 6:9 is the FIRST TIME we have seen the word used and John the Faster in Penitential which is dated to about AD 575 DEFINATELY uses the word to refer to a man sleeping with his wife "In fact, many men even commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives.”

So whilst it doesnt tell us what the sin is – its not Homosexuality which is often the (lazy) english translation.

Now I just use that as an example. So if you want to know what fornication is – are you talking generally – in which case go to a dictionary – or are you talking biblically – in which case – you need to look at the specific verse…. but sometimes different words are translated to the same english work and other times the same word is translated differently,

I should point out this is the only way to get close to actually knowing what the bible is actually saying – but its only a start…..

some words – like Arsenokoites – are still considered to be unknown by actual language scholars – and then there are issues of context and style and allusion (which is extremely important in interpretation of some scripture for example – apocryphal scriptures are meant to be interpreted according to specific – and non literal ways and there is a long tradition of this. Just reading it in the english tends to miss a great deal of the point of the original)

If churches want allude to biblical authority then you need to go to the bible verses – and there are plenty of discussions on those ….. (and my personal view – that when God wants to be clear – he doesnt use obscure words for which the meaning still isnt clear – he uses clear simple unambiguous language – though shall not kill, love one another as I have loved you and he says them on blocks of stone – or Jesus says them (more than once) . IF you believe the bible IS the word of God – then you have to ask why he chose to use obscure words when precise words were available. He did it for a reason and I maintain its because its not so important. )

Ha. This seems remarkably similar to my own 'prayer point' thread.

I've little idea these days exactly what 'adultery' and 'fornication' are and what they're not. There are some very straightforward examples, and then there are all sorts of tricky situations. I'm not at all sure how much God is interested in the mechanics of what's going on and how much he's interested in the principles of what's going on – WHY are you having sex with this person, and what sort of commitments are you making and breaking in the process.

It's certainly hard to pin down marriage as any one thing when the Old Testament has examples of people with multiple wives and with concubines.

It so happens that Insight on SBS last night was about polygamous marriage. Turns out that for a great many cultures around the world (an anthropologist said it was in fact the majority of cultures), exclusive monogamy is not the only kind of commitment and love possible.

I think the most interesting comment (not from someone in a polygamous relationship) was that polygamy was better than an affair because it was open and honest and all parties knew what was happening.

Brunski –

There is a Hebrew word – pilpul ( פלפול) which is defined by as studying the Talmud through intense textual analysis in attempts to either explain conceptual differences between various halakhic rulings or to reconcile any apparent contradictions presented from various readings of different texts.

Pilpul has entered English to indicate casuistic hairsplitting – or over studying issues.

Now I would argue that its impossible to know what god thinks – (infinite being existing out of time – is beyond human human comprehension). To try to understand what God things is to make God like a human. (Like the Greek and Roman Gods were)

And I think thats pretty important because anyone who ever says they know what God is thinking is automatically wrong and insulting God (thats a bit of a digression though)

The point is – there are a series of guidelines left in the bible. Now you can believe its deeply complex and full of codes and requires years of deep study to understand or you can believe – it just means what it says and God put what he wanted to say in there – and no more….

I prefer the latter.

So God doesnt define marriage anywhere in the bible. He doesnt give rules for marriage (Jesus does touch on divorce though – IF you read a scholar translation ) IF a precise marriage definition had mattered to him – he would have said something about it.

He doesnt and I maintain thats because God is happy to accept what ever a culture deems

He isnt sweating on the details… because he looks into the hearts of people

I would say that as my relationship is legally recognised – then as far as the bible is concerned – Im married. End of story. The bible says the authorities are put there by God…. so if they recognise my relationship – then God does. Thats enough for me now. (theres still that Pesky marriage act thoughh for those who have children) All christians should stand up for justice !

As for Sex outside of marriage….

the bible is actually quite nice to prostitutes….

Tamar pretends to be a prostitute and and sleeps with her father-in-law. Thats sex outside marriage and she becomes pregnant AND she is called righteous in the bible. Genesis 38:1-30

Rahab the Harlot had faith and was rewarded with a place of honour in the bible and is listed as an ancestor of Jesus in Matthew.

Jesus said that the Prostitutes ARE entering the Kingdom of heaven ahead of the priests ( Matthew 21:31) Note this is Jesus – speaking – GOD ! this is no figure of speech and there is no caveat here…. not SOME Prostitutes ahead of some Priests etc…. and note also the present tense NOW ! – not later when they repent – but NOW. He clearly didnt think sex outside marriage was that big a sin that it ranked above hyocrisy (or being a liar)

There are other examples as well (he who is without sin, cast the first stone, or Jesus friend of Sinners etc etc) These are not isolated examples and that also suggests God wanted to make the point clear (I suspect because he knew moralists would take a contrary position)

Now there are two types of prostitution in biblical times -Temple prostitution – and the bible universally condemns this practise – but we no longer practise that – but non religious prostitution which it does not condemn and in fact makes a hero of several of them. So if the word of god says they can be rightoues – who are we to have a different opinion to the bible.

and there is NO conflict – simply understand the difference between Temple prostitution and the idololatry that is related (Bad) and the secular prostitution (Some described as righteous by the bible) – which it doesnt seem to mind. Adultery – yes but all sex outside marriage – no.

So – it can be OK – as to when and how – thats something I think people need to draw a line themselves…. and I would say that if you are unconfortable with it -its better to work through that and stick within the lines you are comfortable with.. Certainly the bible doesnt say we NEED to do it but the bible and Jesus definately does not condemn ALL extramarital sex.

And as for the word fornication which you alludeded to originally – more modern translations tend to translate the greek πορνεία (porneia) as sexual immorality – or peversion – not as fornication with its connotation of extra marital sex – as its now considered to be incorrect – and these days there is a leaning towards translating it as just immorality. (which I why i said before – its importat to look at the ACTUAL words in the original language to really understand what is meant)

SO the point is – if these are the things that mattered to God – then these are the things that should matter to us. If the bible doesnt stress over it – then I wouldnt…. and the bible clearly teaches in MORE than one place and in the old and new testament that prostitutes CAN be righteous – so who are we to decide the bible wrong ???

(And if God bothered to put those words in there – then I think its probably important… he didnt just say that so we can ignore it. We know that many of the UBER moralistic approaches to sexuality causes terrible problems and that in itself is a good indication its not actually backed up by scripture – bad fruit etc)

Hope thats helpful and thought provoking…..