The 'Male and Female' Argument

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Joined in 2008
September 23, 2009, 22:01

Hey guys. Today, I spoke openly about being gay for the first time at my school! (Yay!) It was during my Study Hall and one of my friends told me to tell another student I was gay, so I did. Simple. (This is getting easier and easier! Yeah!)

Now the reason I’m making a separate thread for this and not just posting this in my own thread is because this student said something in response to me that I keep hearing over and over again. It was basically that God made us male and female, so therefore, homosexuality doesn’t make sense. It’s essentially the Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve argument but expressed in more generic terms. This is the same argument I’ve heard from almost every person I’ve ever talked to about my orientation. I’m asking everyone here, what would you say is a good response to this argument? I have many responses, but they’re usually all so long, drawn-out, technical that I’d never be able to explain it all in the middle of a casual conversation. Also since I know so much about homosexuality already, it’s hard for me to realize that my friends are largely in the dark on this topic. So I ask for you to put yourself in my shoes and say how you would respond if someone used that argument against you. The other person has a very limited knowledge of homosexuality and you have a very limited amount of time to express yourself. What do you say?

Joined in 2006
September 24, 2009, 07:18

a short answer hmmmm ……..

looking at it biblically – there are many things the bible will not say about a person’s life because it was not imperative

David and Johnathan, they had an interesting relationship …..

Was every Eunuch castrated?????????

would i dare mention John and how he loved to lay his head on Jesus’ chest ……….

(no one stone me now)

Adam and Eve – does your friend agree or disagree with divorce under certain circumstances – going on their argument using Adam and Eve (man and woman) then divorce must be totally out of the question

Christian teaching as in other religions too i guess, take a big amount of liberties – they read what they want between the lines, with what suits them – but they feel uncomfortable when someone finds something elsewhere in the bible that does not match their ideas.

It is general practice taught at bible college that one gets ‘teaching/doctrine/principle’ from 2 preferably 3 different areas in the bible

(that is taught in mainstream charismatic and pentecostal bible colleges, not freedom2b(e) bible college)

so Adam and Eve – they need a bit more strength to their argument than just that going on mainstream principles

not to mention the fact, using this argument on its own, they are in agreement with incest (sounds silly, yes, but when I have had ‘discussions’ with christians once calling themselves my friends on validity or non validity of being a gay christian, they said we must take the bible literally, so i told them they are believers in incest, their wives should have their heads covered, they should not eat a pile of foods they all love to eat and the list goes on) they had no rebuttal.

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
September 24, 2009, 10:28

my simple answer Tez when anyone says God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve is “well obviously you understand reproduction but are ignorant about sexual orientation”.

Is someone is totally literalist about the genesis account….we will always have a problem. its a simple story about creation….not meant to be the final word on science or the complexities and diversity of creation.

I usually question the people about their knowledge of same sex behaviour and orientation in the animal kingdom. Not only does same sex activity occur but there are numurous examples of same sex partnering as well. Some for life.

If God created the world and everything in it…..its about diversity.

Heterosexuality is not normal……its just more common. Normal is a cycle on my washing machine.

Joined in 2008
September 24, 2009, 19:52

Normal is a cycle on my washing machine.

Now where have I heard that quote before 😆 😆 😆

Yep, for someone to say that the Genesis creation story is the “be all and end all” displays a certain level of ignorance about the complexities of societal living … in my opinion one can’t take that account in itself as the definitative line …

Joined in 2009
September 24, 2009, 20:17

It was basically that God made us male and female, so therefore, homosexuality doesn’t make sense. It’s essentially the Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve argument but expressed in more generic terms.

If they’re trying to use God’s supposed intentions for creation as a reason for homosexuality to be “unintended”, then they’re in for a rude surprise

NB: Wikipedia should never be used as an authoritative source, but as a stepping stone to other resources.

Joined in 2008
September 25, 2009, 13:52

Great question!

I have found that sharing the huge number of species who have homosexual sex is often helpful as that tends th break down the idea of what is “Natural” being Heterosexual.

Pen xxx

Joined in 2008
September 25, 2009, 13:55

This is a funny note (author unknown) that speaks to biblical literalism:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

b. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d. Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

e. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

g. Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

Joined in 2008
September 25, 2009, 14:03

I really like Anthonys comment about Animal sexual activity. Here is an article i found interesting that may help in response.

ASorry about the list lenght, but it just adds to the message 😉

Homosexuality in the Animal Kingdom (and other non-human species)

The 1999 book by Bruce Bagemihl, Ph.D. (New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1999, Publisher’s Weekly “Best Book of 1999”), “Biological Exuberance, Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity,” states that homosexual and/or transgender activity has been observed in “over 450 species.” He states in his book’s introduction:

“Any book on homosexuality and transgender in animals is necessarily unfinished, a work in progress. The subject is so vast, the types of behaviors so varied, and the number of species involved so large, as to defy any attempts at comprehensiveness. And the scientific research in this area is only in its infancy: new developments and discoveries are continually being made, and the extent of uncharted and as yet unknowable terrain is so great as to render any attempt at completeness hopelessly premature.”

His book states that, as of 1999, homosexual and/or transgender behavior has been observed in the following 478 species:


..> Homosexual / Transgender Species

Acanthocephalan Worms

Acorn Woodpecker

Adelie Penguin

African Buffalo

African Elephant

Agile Wallaby

Alfalfa Weevil

Amazon Molly

Amazon River Dolphin

American Bison

Anna’s Humminbird

Anole sp.



Appalachian Woodland Salamander

Asiatic Elephant

Asiatic Mouflon

Atlantic Spotted Dolphin

Australian Parasitic Wasp sp.

Australian Sea Lion

Australian Shelduck

Aztec Parakeet

Bank Swallow


Barbary Sheep

Barn Owl

Bean Weevil sp.

Bedbug and other Bug spp.


Bangalese Finch (Domestic)



Bicolored Antbird

Bighorn Sheep

Black Bear

Black-billed Magpie


Black-crowned Night Heron

Black-footed Rock Wallaby

Black-headed Gull

Black-rumped Flameback

Black-spotted Frog

Black Stilt

Blackstripe Topminnow

Black Swan

Black-tailed Deer

Black-winged Stilt

Blister Beetle spp.


Blue-backed Manakin

Blue-bellied Roller

Bluegill Sunfish

Blue Sheep

Blue Tit

Blue-winged Teal

Bonnet Macaque



Bottlenose Dolphin

Bowhead Whale

Box Crab

Bridled Dolphin

Broad-headed Skink

Broadwinged Damselfly sp.

Brown Bear

Brown Capuchin

Brown-headed Cowbird

Brown Long-eared Bat

Brown Rat

Budgeriger (Domestic)

Buff-breasted Sandpiper

Rush Dog

Cabbage (Small) White


California Gull

Canada Goose

Canary-winged Parakeet


Caspian Tern

Cat (Domestic)

Cattle (Domestic)

Cattle Egret



Checkered Whiptail Lizard

Checkerspot Butterfly


Chicken (Domestic)

Chihuahuan Spotted Whiptail Lizard

Chiloe Wigeon

Cliff Swallow

Clubtail Dragonfly spp.

Cockroach spp.

Collared Peccary

Cammerson’s Dolphin

Common Ameiva

Common Brushtail Possum

Common Chimpanzee

Common Dolphin

Common Garter Snake

Common Gull

Common Marmoset

Common Murre

Common Pipistrelle

Common Racoon

Common Shelduck

Common Skimmer Dragonfly spp.

Common Tree Shrew

Cotton-top Tamarin

Crab-eating Macaque

Crane spp.

Creeping Water Bug sp.

Crested Black Macaque

Cuban Green Anole


Dall’s Sheep

Daubenton’s Bat

Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard

Desert Tortoise

Digger Bee

Dog (Domestic)

Doria’s Tree Kangaroo

Dragonfly spp.


Dusky Moorhen

Dwarf Cavy

Dwarf Mongoose

Eastern Bluebird

Eastern Cottontail Rabbit

Eastern Giant Ichneumon

Eastern Gray Kangaroo

Egyptian Goose

Elegant Parrot



Eucalyptus Longhorned Borer


European Bison

European Bitterling

European Jay

European Shag

Fallow Deer

False Killer Whale

Fat-tailed Dunnart

Fence Lizard

Field Cricket sp.

Fin Whale

Five-lined Skink


Fruit Fly spp.


Gelada Baboon

Gentoo Penguin


Glasswing Butterfly

Goat (Domestic)

Golden Bishop Bird

Golden Monkey

Golden Plover

Gopher (Pine) Snake


Grant’s Gazelle

Grape Berry Moth

Grape Borer

Gray-breasted Jay

Gray-capped Social Weaver

Gray-headed Flying Fox

Gray Heron


Gray Seal

Gray Squirrel

Gray Whale

Great Cormorant

Greater Bird of Paradise

Greater Rhea

Green Anole

Green Lacewing

Green Sandpiper


Green Swordtail

Greylag Goose

Griffon Vulture

Grizzly Bear

Guiana Leaffish

Guianan Cock-of-the-Rock


Guinea Pig (Domestic)

Hamadryas Baboon


Hamster (Domestic)

Hanuman Lanur

Harbor Porpoise

Harbor Seal

Harvest Spider sp.

Hawaiin Orb-Weaver

Hen Flea

Herring Gull

Himalayan Tahr

Hoary-headed Grebe

Hoary Marmot

Hooded Warbler

Horse (Domestic)

House Fly

House Sparrow

Houting Whitefish

Humboldt Penguin

Ichneumon Wasp sp.

Incirrate Octopus spp.

Inagua Curlytail Lizard

Indian Fruit Bat

Indian Mantjac

Indian Rhinoceros

Ivory Gull


Jamaican Giant Anole

Japanese Scarab Beetle

Japanese Macaque


Jewel Fish

Jumping Spider sp.

Kangaroo Rat


Killer Whale

King Penquin




Larch Bud Moth

Laredo Striped Whiptail Lizard

Larga Seal

Largehead Anole

Large Milkweed Bug

Large White

Laughing Gull

Laysan Albatross

Least Chipmunk

Least Darter


Lesser Bushbaby

Lesser Flamingo

Lesser Scaup Duck


Lion-tailed Macaque

Lion Tamarin

Little Blue Heron

Little Brown Bat

Little Egret

Livingstone’s Fruit Bat

Long-eared Hedgehog

Long-footed Tree Shrew

Long-legged Fly spp.

Long-tailed Hermit Hummingbird

Mallard Duck



Masked Lovebird

Matschie’s Tree Kangaroo

Mazarine Blue

Mealy Amazon Parrot

Mediterranean Fruit Fly

Mew Gull

Mexican Jay

Mexican White

Midge sp.

Migratory Locust

Mite sp.


Mohol Galago

Monarch Butterfly

Moor Macaque


Mountain Dusky Salamander

Mountain Goat

Mountain Tree Shrew

Mountain Zebra

Mourning Gecko

Mouse (Domestic)

Mouthbreeding Fish sp.

Mule Deer

Mustached Tamarin

Musk Duck


Mute Swan

Narrow-winged Damselfly spp.

Natterer’s Bat

New Zealand Sea Lion

Nilgiri Langur


North American Porcupine

Northern Elephant Seal

Northern Fur Seal

Northern Quoll

Ocellated Antbird

Ocher-bellied Flycatcher

Olympic Marmot

Orange Bishop Bird

Orange-footed Parakeet



Ornate Lorikeet



Pacific Striped Dolphin

Parsnip Leaf Miner

Patas Monkey

Peach-faced Lovebird

Pere David’s Deer

Pied Flycatcher

Pied Kingfisher

Pig (Domestic)

Pigeon (Domestic)

Pig-tailed Macaque

Plains Zebra

Plateau Striped Whiptail Lizard

Polar Bear

Pomace Fly

Powerful Owl


Pretty-faced Wallaby

Proboscis Monkey


Przewalski’s Horse



Purple Swamphen

Pygmy Chimpanzee

Queen Butterfly


Rabbit (Domestic)

Raccoon Dog

Raggiana’s Bird of Paradise

Rat (Domestic)



Red Ant sp.

Red-backed Shrike

Red Bishop Bird

Red Deer

Red Diamond Rattlesnake

Red-faced Lovebird

Red Flour Beetle

Red Fox

Red Kangaroo

Red-necked Wallaby


Red-shouldered Widowbird

Red Squirrel

Red-tailed Skink

Reeve’s Muntjac

Regent Bowerbird


Reindeer Warble Fly

Rhesus Macaque

Right Whale

Ring-billed Gull

Ring Dove

Rock Cavy

Rock Dove

Rodrigues Fruit Bat

Roe Deer

Roseate Cockatoo

Roseate Tern


Rose-ringed Parakeet

Rove Beetle spp.


Ruffed Grouse

Rufous Bettong

Rufous-naped Tamarin

Rufous Rat Kangaroo

Saddle-back Tamarin

Sage Grouse

Salmon spp.

San Blas Jay

Sand Martin

Satin Bowerbird

Savanna Baboon

Scarab Beetle, Melolonthine

Scarlet Ibis

Scottish Crossbill

Screwworm Fly

Sea Otter

Senegal Parrot

Serotine Bat

Sharp-tailed Sparrow

Sheep (Domestic)


Side-blotched Lizard

Sika Deer

Silkworm Moth

Silver Gull

Silvery Grebe

Slender Tree Shrew

Snow Goose

Sociable Weaver

Sooty Mangabey

Southeastern Blueberry Bee

Southern Green Stink Bug

Southern Masked Chafer

Southern One-Year Canegrub

Southern Platyfish

Speckled Rattlesnake

Sperm Whale

Spinifex Hopping Mouse

Spinner Dolphin

Spotted Hyena

Spotted Seal

Spreadwinged Damselfly spp.

Spruce Budworm Moth

Squirrel Monkey

Stable Fly sp.

Stag Beetle spp.

Steller’s Sea Eagle

Striped Dolphin

Stuart’s Marsupial Mouse

Stumptail Macaque

Superb Lyrebird

Swallow-tailed Manakin

Swamp Deer

Swamp Wallaby



Tammar Wallaby

Tasmanian Devil

Tasmanian Native Hen

Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo

Tengger Desert Toad

Ten-spined Stickleback

Thinhorn Sheep

Thomson’s Gazelle

Three-spined Stickleback

Tonkean Macaque

Tree Swallow

Trumpeter Swan

Tsetse Fly


Turkey (Domestic)


Vampire Bat

Verreaux’s Sifaka


Victoria’s Riflebird





Water Boatman Bug


Water Buffalo

Water Moccasin

Water Strider spp.

Wattled Starling

Weeper Capuchin

Western Gray Kangaroo

Western Gull

Western Rattlesnake

West Indian Manatee

Western Banded Gecko

Whiptail Lizard spp.

Whiptail Wallaby

White-faced Capuchin

White-fronted Amazon Parrot

White-fronted Capuchin

White-handed Gibbon

White-lipped Peccary

White Stork

White-tailed Deer

Wild Cavy

Wild Goat



Wood Duck

Wood Turtle

Yellow-backed (Chattering) Lorikeet

Yello-footed Rock Wallaby

Yellow-rumped Cacique

Yellow-toothed Cavy

Zebra Finch (Domestic)

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
September 26, 2009, 00:23

…and what about the barramundi

Ann Maree
Joined in 2008
October 29, 2009, 09:51

Hi there

Yeah great response AVB!

Not everything is about creation and reproduction. I mean the creation story obviously is, and given that sperm and eggs are needed for that, having a male and female present is the easist way to demonstrate growth. So, especially in those times when they weren’t using IVF or turkey basters, I agree, homosexuality in the context of reproduction wouldn’t make sense. But then a lot of things about the literal meaning of that story don’t make sense. The incest reference is one of them. It’s funny how creationist Christians can excuse/forget that one but they can’t get past homosexuality!!

Using the examples of homosexual animal species is nice since God created them and saw they were good. Christians can’t really argue that these are mutations since creationists don’t tend to believe in evolution!

And genesis can’t and doesn’t explain other complexities like the male and female sides in each of us (Jung’s anima and animus, for instance) and yet I think those are valuable bits of psychological theory. So in a sense we are not just 100% male or 100% female. There are many variations within.

And sea horses. I didn’t see them on the list of animals . I think from memory the males carry the babies too?

Good topic. Hope this all has helped.

All the best,

Ann Maree

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