The webs we weave... (28 probably gay, not publicly out)

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Joined in 2012
August 29, 2012, 23:42

Hey everyone, this is my first ever post… just discovered the site today!

As the subject suggests, I'm in a complicated situation. I'm in my late 20s, and am in quite a visible position within a large and influential pentecostal church. I have released alot of worship music in several different churches plus my own albums etc, and was a worship pastor for several years… talk about pressure! I feel like I have so many people who look up to me and are counting on the example I set.

Then in 'opposition' to this, as I've always believed to be the case until now, I am incredibly attracted to other guys. Not *just* guys, mind you, but enough that I would feel like such a fraud to marry a woman and pretend that whole side of who I am did not exist. Enough that I feel that I'm hiding a big whopping secret. But I have been open and honest with a number of people in my life, so it's not that much of a secret to the people closest to me. It's just not public knowledge as it's really no-one's business, in my opinion. Could I marry a woman? Sure. I am attracted enough to women that I believe I could be satisfied in a relationship (as I have been in the past), but so long as she was ok with my attraction to guys as well, and not threatened by it. I was in a long-term straight relationship that was heading towards marriage, but I broke it off because of other issues in the relationship… not because I wasn't attracted to her! That was a long time ago now, however, and I may have changed a lot since then.

I guess I'm coming to a place where for 10 years I suppressed, buried, prayed against, cried out in agony to God about, and was endlessly depressed and secretly suicidal about this whole aspect of my life. I had experiences with guys that were unfulfilling and largely damaging. I've also been put through damaging 'prayer counselling' as they called it. It was the biggest evil crock… Apparently after Jesus miraculously fixed me I then had to stop all my 'mannerisms'. Of which I had none because I'm not an effeminate kinda guy. Oh and I was forced to tell my parents all the explicit details of my sexual experiences with a guy in high school.

On the flipside I've even had periods of time where I genuinely felt very limited attraction towards guys and mainly towards women (my own little 'reparative therapy' helped with that I guess). But I'm at this point of being just so damn tired of the frustration and pain / guilt cycle of it all. I just want to be at peace with who I am.

A short while ago after many years of denying myself of any kind of relationship with anyone of the same sex I had 2 quite tame encounters with other Christian guys around my age that were unexpected (I didn't seek anything out). The first was awkward and uncomfortable and left me feeling happy to be living this straight identity. Yet the second… I found a level of intimacy, acceptance and joy just being close to this person. In this instance though it's not something that could become a real relationship as he does not identify as gay and is very much, in my opinion, in denial. But I felt GOOD. I felt happy. And I had not one ounce of guilt! What the ?!? A good friend and pastor I know (who is openly gay, but happily married with kids) said to me, "Maybe this means you are finally accepting who you really are." Now I don't think it's ok to be running around doing whatever you please with anyone. I believe that a loving, committed relationship is the best way to express and explore sexual desire. I was just at a crossroads and quite confused so I entertained these situations for better or worse. (In terms of accountability, which I believe is VITAL for personal direction, safety, guidance, support etc, I have shared this with a trusted pastor and friend.)

So this all brings me to the clincher… I see several options ahead of me:

1) Come out publicly. Accept that I will lose a vast majority of my ministry following, but will be able to minister more authentically and help others in my situation… or as one friend put it 'go and live wild and explore my new-found freedom'. Not sure I could be ok with that. I still love God too much to throw off all restraint.

2) Accept who I am wholeheartedly, but be selective about who I share this with. I see this as a choice of celibacy but not secrecy. But to be clear, I would happily share my struggles with anyone who asked, EVEN IF it compromised my ministry standing – in order to be integrous. Marry or don't marry… But I could not be in a relationship with another man even if I had feelings for someone. The guidelines for ministry within this church don't allow it. That'd suck, as it has in the past. But I accept that's the cost I'd have to be willing to pay. Heck it's not like I'd jump out of the closet and into a loving relationship. Maybe I'd give it all up for the right person. Hmm.

The main areas of scripture that really speak to me about this are where it talks about not being a stumbling block for others, and not knowingly bringing offense. I know this is a hugely 'offensive' issue to people in the church… just like eating food offered to idols was back in the day, so I'm ok with that. I don't want to be a 'give me my rights at any cost' bulldozer and start picketing the front gates of the church. There's too much of that stuff these days. Jesus told us to love others, not yell hate at them, even if they yelled first… AS we love ourselves. So yes, not being a doormat, but choosing to let my public actions be respectful towards others' beliefs and convictions (according to scripture). So walking into church with a man on my arms because that's my right is kinda not acting in love towards others. My private convictions are mine and mine alone.

Oh yes, option 3.

3) Bury the crap out of this thing and let it keep coming up in more and more unhealthy and destructive ways! Porn, dodgy encounters etc…

Now to make matters more interesting… I am meant to be leaving Australia shortly to help pioneer a church plant oversees and am TERRIFIED of the isolation and what it may do to me.

I'm interested to hear what people think… on things such as: Who do I tell? Who do I not tell?

People ask 'can you be a Christian and be gay?' My answer… 'sure, I've been doing it for 10 years. I just didn't know it!'

Seriously tho, I'm still just working this all out… but all I know is that I think some guys are hot. And I love Jesus. Why the hell is that such a big deal? (By the way, I say 'some' because, hell, as if a straight guy is attracted to EVERY woman on earth and every gay guy is attracted to EVERY guy. Seriously, even though the closest box I'd fit into is gay, I find some guys completely unattractive – ie Danny Devito, and some women totally breathtaking who make my heart skip a beat and I wanna marry them – ie Rachel Taylor. I confuse myself, honestly…)

Ah well… long-winded. I've had alot on my mind and not really anywhere to share it, so I hope you enjoyed the epic read!


Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:03

I would take your time and not rush telling all. But do recommend that you live how you want with God. Please don't feel you have to compromise and hide or pretend any longer. If you have a trustworthy group of people who can support you, ask for their support while you be yourself and step up to be yourself without having to go out in front of everyone. You need to protect yourself and feel safe, and be safe within yourself and your support group can help you. Make sure you get good counsel from very experienced Christian/Gay counsellors first too. Hopefully they have connected with you here. All the best and I will pray Danno. Warm regards Kathy ps I know some great professional Pastor counsellors who are totally pro gay/les and work in this area and can put you onto them if you like xx

Joined in 2010
August 30, 2012, 12:07

Hi Danno,

Can I say it's amazing what you've shared. Firstly, you're not alone.

I personally gave my life to the Lord when I was 11, and I've been planted in the body of Christ ever since. I currently attend Jubilee Church in Waverley.

God wants you to live in integrity. If you're one of God's special children, who is gay, then be yourself. I've noticed in my many years being among my gay brothers in Christ, is that those who have come to acceptance of their sexuality, and live authentically, God prospers the most.

Your struggle with your sexuality is a liability, as Satan can at any time use it to destroy your works.

Before I came to acceptance of my own sexuality, I had determined within myself to not marry I woman. I just couldn't do it, neither to myself or to her. Sex is a pivotal part of God's plan for marriage, and the truth is, I could never fulfill that with a woman. It was at that point, that I said to myself, I will not be marrying a woman.

I've come to realise in recent months, that the church's stance against gay marriage is actually quite destructive. The reason being is that the only choice that the church offers gay men and women is to remain celibate. This is un-sustainable. What ends up happening (for most people) is that people live destructive lives, with dis-integrity. They show one face to the church, but they live destrictive lives behind closed doors (porn addictions, promiscuous hook ups etc).

I personally support marriage, and have determined myself to remain celibate until I get married (basically the same model the church uses with hetrosexuals of no sex before marriage). I personally find in my own life that it honours Christ and brings the best out in me.

God is doing amazing things in the gay community, and your timing is perfect. The gay revival is commencing, and it's an exciting time. God is doing incredibly things through the gay community including signs and wonders.

If you get a chance, read through my testimony. It's located here:—jd—32-m-t1111

I do hope you connect with us. We're the beautiful, colourful part of the fabric which is the body of Christ.



Joined in 2005
August 30, 2012, 12:09


Welcome to Freedom2b

Wow – great first post. I will say – that whilst everyone's story is unique – is not unlike others so you are not alone.

One of my best friends from school had a thing for Guys , then married and had children. Later Divorced and later married a Gorgeous Man (obviously not in Aus) He perhaps doesnt shout it out on the rooftops but has always been pretty clear and open that he doesnt want to be locked in one way or t'other. In my experience that no common in the long term but that in no way invalidates it and I think its really important to be true to your self in these matters.

I personally helped plant churches when I was younger (my talents werent in music but I have my own talents) and I know its a huge thing to come out to the church. Coming out was one of the scariest things I ever did – and my social circles are very different now. Funny – 28 was about the age I accepted I was Gay and I had Sex for the first time (and that was with a Guy) and I started having to deal with a whole pile of questions like the ones you are dealing with now….

Im a lot older now. Ive been with my current partner well over a decade. I am out at my work (and have been for the last umpteen companies i have worked for here and across the USA and Europe). I am out in my local community and with all my family. I have found accepting christians which I socialise with and those who dont accept me – Im not interested in dealing with. Its their loss – not mine.

I am active in ways to make a difference in the community both the LGBTIQ community. the Geek community, the world (I worked at one time for one of the Refugee Aid bodies so thats a passion for me) and others.

I dont let my sexuality define me. Its part of my yes – but its not all of me and its not my whole world and I socialise and work and volunteer in both the LGBTIQ world and the greater encompassing world.

I'm actually one of the co-founders of freedom2b – it started from a forum that my partner and I organised to discuss the impact of religious intolerance on LGBTIQ lives – although now I merely lurk on the forums a bit so I mention it to show that there are ways we can reach out and touch people and help those around us – beyond what we thought of when were were in our churches (like you know and like I thought when I was planting churches as a young man)

I dont know that path you need to walk – ( The Great JRR Tolkein Quote "Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no" applies to me also) as everyone needs to find a path thats right for them…. but I would suggest the following

1. We are here – ask as many questions as you like – thats what we are here for.

2. Take your time – theres no rush and once these things are done – you cant go back – so wait till you are sure. I have no regrets about coming out – best thing I ever did – but wait till your ready….

3. Seek out answers for yourself – The ENTIRE Christian world once believed – beyond a shadow of a doubt – that the world was flat because Daniel referred to the Four corners of the earth. Imagine as a peasant going to a medieval peasant – and seeing its grandeur and power and wealth – and sheer numbers of people. ALL of whom knew the world was flat. And the Bible said it was flat – in black and white. ALL of Christendom knew that. Why would you doubt it ? BUT they WERE wrong. and the Established church has been wrong many times (slavery was God ordained, Women shouldnt Vote, Civilisation would collapse if women worked, Electricity was the devils tool (OK – I like this one but I really done know how widespread it was….) , Bathing (washing) would make you sick. Should I go on ??? The point Im making is that sheer numbers, tradition, nor history are not guarantee of being right and anyone that gets up on a pulpit and relies on those to convince you of anything KNOWS he is wrong. In everyone of those cases Ive mentioned – the Church declared it would be the end of the church if the change happened – and then they quietly reinterpreted things and now most of those world shaking controversies are forgotten even though people died over them at the time.

So i know it can be hard to trust what you feel in your hard when your church is large and they all say something different – but you know what – you can be right and they can ALL be wrong

Trust you heart. This tells you an awful lot " I found a level of intimacy, acceptance and joy just being close to this person. ….. But I felt GOOD. I felt happy. And I had not one ounce of guilt!"

Now how do you tell a blind man about the colours of the rainbow or a deaf man about a Bach toccata ? How can a straight person understand what its like to be Bi or Gay. They cant and even to think they can is ignorant and thats one of the main reasons they are so wrong… because they are blind to the reality and havent thought about the fact they are blind to it….

Hope this is helpful and again – welcome !

Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:12

Thanks Kathy πŸ™‚ Much appreciated! I have a fantastic former senior pastor who is now a counsellor who is talking me through this whole process. I guess though it's just the being torn between two 'oppositional' worlds, which has always been my belief until now. Reconciling the two… Now that's a mission. Because somewhere along the line something has to be compromised in order to have true integrity. I guess people try to eliminate their sexual orientation so they can fit the life they've always dreamed of around that. Or make their life line up with what is 'normal'. I have had to let go of the 'need' to be married with kids etc. Whatever will happen will happen, but putting undue pressure on myself to be something I want to be as opposed to truly who I am is where I often fall down. Keeping up the act is exhausting.

Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:30

Hey you r amazing for a start to write here. Its a safe enough place to explore your path. If I were you instead of being exhausted, give up. This can be done by connecting more with this group and Christian Gay groups that are private and safe are popping up. The more you know of those people the more over time you will definitely find your way. So you can merge with the you that you really are more and more over time. No hurry. These guys can advise you more and be a friend. I'm just a girl! But I agree with others that the joy of living within your own integrity is where you will find happiness. We have a great conference coming up in Melbourne called 'a Different Conversation' ….it's got a website. Come to that. Love to meet you. Kathy

Joined in 2005
August 30, 2012, 12:32


You definitely do not need to give up the Kids idea – I have many Gay friends with Kids,

Some were asked to be the fathers and share the parenting. Some Adopted. Some Got married and told their wives they where gay but wanted kids (yes – believe it or not and they make GREAT dads)

I'm not recommending any of these – but I am saying I know plenty of Gay fathers (and theres a very strong Gay Fathers support group actually.

On a kinda related note I will also note that traditional church morality actually only works by carefully ignoring large chunks of the bible and mistranslating words.

I'm not recommending any particular interpretation and you Do need to follow you conscience on these matters – BUT if you wanted to look into this matter I would suggest never assume what is meant when the bible talks about fornication or immorality – because people often assume that means things like sex outside marriage etc – but there are strong arguments against those definitions…. and in fact reading the stories of Rachel and Tamar in the Old testament – two women – one who is a prostitute – and the other has sex with a man NOT her husband – who are declared Righteous and blessed. (so much so they are listed as ancestors of both King David and Jesus himself). So if sex outside marriage was a great sin – well – how can they be righteous ?

Solomon also – with God given wisdom – didnt condemn prostitutes either… and Jesus didnt like Adultery but didnt seem to mind prostitutes…. so there is some definite room for thought here.

Certainly the churches teaching that all sex outside marriage is simple and easy but it isnt actually biblical or correct (and in fact – marriage wasnt really defined as a true sacrament or legal thing until the church looked into the matter during the reformation and requested the governments to deal with it as it was not seen as a sacrament at that time so the question of what is biblical marriage is actually quite a complicated one – despite what the opponents of Gay marriage would like to have people believe)

Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:35

And to ShadowBoxer & JD…

It just so intrigues me. Because I used to think the whole idea of a gay Christian was a contradiction in terms. But I'm realising that I haven't changed who I am the whole time I've been a Christian or in ministry… God has blessed my ministry over the years not IN SPITE of who I am, but through who I am. I used to get racked in guilt thinking 'God is allowing me to see fruit to encourage me to change'. But last night when I was praying I said, 'you know what God, I'm not going to ask you to change me anymore. I'm happy with how you've made me. If you want to change things about me, then go ahead, I give your Spirit full access to my heart to do your work. But I will not keep shaking my fists at you for abandoning me or making me this way.' That I believe is a life-defining moment right there.

I will say too that I have had a vast lot of experience sexually with guys from a young age, so it's not like I'm working out what I like. That part is pretty much locked in. But what happens is because of what I'm attracted to yet not 'allowed' because of my position to entertain, yeah it comes out in porn, in destructive and unfulfilled relationships etc. I even got accused of being a paedophile for helping a young guy who was struggling with his sexuality. Yeah I should have been more wise with boundaries given my position in the church. I was fired from my job and treated like a criminal, although it was thoroughly investigated and I was legally vindicated. That was the worst period of my life. My parents loved me through it. They are awesome!

One other example is this close mate I had for the past year or so. I really deeply loved him, and we lived together. He was in no way open to a relationship, so for me to keep back the 90% of what I was thinking and feeling was TORTURE. He knew some of my story, which made him not want to hug me, be overly nice to me etc so as not to make things 'difficult' for me. I get that he was trying to help in his own way, but him leaving to go overseas was the best thing for me. I found myself satisfying my desire to be with him physically through increasingly damaging sessions of porn viewing, excessive masturbation and a burdonesome thought life. I wanted to just be a normal friend and not drag my issues into the friendship. It damn well nearly ruined me trying to keep that up.

What do I do though with this also genuine attraction to women? I don't like how some people think it's fake or not there, because, by God, it sure as heck is. It's hard to put into words, but I have these times when for instance I can see straight sex on TV, or a girl in a certain bikini or a girl I think is really attracted and then for a while I go through a 'straight period' where I don't even fantasize about guys and feel totally satisfied fantasising about straight sex. And then I'll see a guy I'm attracted to and vice versa on and on. The only way I can best describe it is wearing a coat one day, and then a different coat another day. You look and feel different, it smells different, has different fabric, but underneath it's still you. If that makes sense??? It's very double-minded, I know, but not really anything I can control. I still find myself falling for girls, but I feel so inadequate. My last girlfriend wasn't phased with my struggle in this area, because she turned me on to an insane degree. She was also good friends with the first guy I slept with, and even made out with him before she dated me. Like I said…the webs we weave hey…

Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:36

Hey Danno, I haven't done anything anywhere near as much as what you have already accomplished, so I may not be of much help compared to what other amazing members on F2B can give you advice on, but I do think I can still offer something to the table here.

I've also been put through damaging 'prayer counselling' as they called it. It was the biggest evil crock…

I agree, prayer counselling sounds very similar to what I have heard ex-gay programs put people through, and trust me when I say they don't work. They instill a guilt trip inside of you promising they can change your sexual orientation, but one thing I have personally learnt in the last few years of my own self discovery is that this part of you cannot be changed no matter how much praying, counselling and whatever else you do. It took me many years to come to terms with this fact.

I'm interested to hear what people think… on things such as: Who do I tell? Who do I not tell?

For me personally, I have only told my parents. I need time to harness enough confidence to tell the rest of my family, but for now knowing my parents know that I am gay is relief enough. It's up to you, so only take my opinion as a grain of salt. I personally don't think I need to tell the whole world. I think when my whole family knows, I will be comfortable enough to tell others when and where appropriate, but a common theme among coming out advice is the fact that you don't have to tell the whole world because quite frankly it's none of their business πŸ™‚ and even if people find out and out you, "those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter".

You mention you admire some good looking women. I personally think we all have a bit of "bisexual" in all of us. Heck, if I was straight I would definitely have posters of Charlize Theron (wow, stunner), Rihanna (she has great legs), Amanda Bynes, maybe Hilary Duff, and Emily Vancamp on my wall, but I am most definitely attracted physically AND emotionally to guys.

I feel like I have so many people who look up to me and are counting on the example I set

This is just my personal opinion so take this with a grain of salt also πŸ™‚ since many people look up to you, perhaps your calling could be becoming an even greater role model to them by studying the context of the passages / scriptures in the bible and preaching the fact that God loves everyone just as they are? You could be the next Rob Buckingham! (brilliant pastor in my opinion). Here, these videos have helped me increase my knowledge and reality of the clobber passages in the bible and may help you:

I hope that was of some help/use to you anyway! There is also which has a lot of helpful advice and A TON of members who have various backgrounds which may help you much more than what I can advise you on. It's great you've joined F2B, this place is indeed great.

God Bless,


Joined in 2012
August 30, 2012, 12:58

Woops didn't notice there were so many posts before my post (took a long time for me to write all that ha ha). By the sounds of your physical attraction to women also, perhaps you could be bisexual? Anyway it's so awesome that you are open and honest, and we're all here to give tips and advice!


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