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What Does The Bible Actually Say About Homosexuality?

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Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 8, 2009, 15:42

Yes, fascinating. Thanks Meg for putting that link here for others. I found it fantastic to have someone who understands the Hebrew language well, and not to mention the bible, offering her insights like that. I wonder what your friend thinks about the eunuch passage in Matthew?


I still find it a bit frustrating that we don’t really know what was meant by that word “gadal”. I mean, it wouldn’t surprise me if it was referring to David being sexually aroused and full of passion. And gosh, that would have made for interesting times at church if that interpretation had been preached!! 😆


I guess you’re right, Avb, that no one will fully know because we weren’t there. (The more I think of it though, the more I think that the crying and kissing indicates the relationship was more than just friends, no matter what label we put on their orientations).

davidt
 
Joined in 2009
November 8, 2009, 15:59

I just love reading those passages in 1 and 2 Samuel through in one sitting. It certainly seems the Holy Spirit has made a real point of underlining D&J’s love for each other many times. It is not just a throw away line. Anthony, you may well be right about the Hebrew on their sexual arousal when they kissed. One possible meaning in Young’s Concordance of Heb gadal is “to be (caus. to make) large … in body”. It also seemed very significant to me that God no where punished D or J for being so deeply in love.


I regret I didn’t record footnotes and a bibliography when I wrote the paper. Maybe sometime I might share with you how that paper came to be written. It is quite a story. It is amazing how God works sometimes.


We had a gay couple as neighbours a few years ago. Those guys were really close and I mean REALLY close. We became good friends with them and still are. I would love to tell you they have come to know the Lord but that is yet to happen. Once we went away on holidays and Stuart asked if he could do anything for us. I asked him top top up the water level in our pool if we had windy weather or pump a bit out if we had rain. Its a long story, but when the creepy crawly system didn’t work, he got his togs on in the middle of winter and dived down and picked up every single leaf off the bottom of the pool by hand. Neighbours don’t come any better than that guys.


When Joe sat on Stuart’s lap or when he lay against him on the couch as they watched TV together, that seemed just “so right” to me. Stuart is a jeweller and he made their wedding rings in a phallic design. He submitted that design in an international competition at de Beers in London and won first prize. Joe is very proud of that ring I tell you. I believe their deep love for each other was something that God did.


It seems we now have a lesbian couple just moved in two doors away. Maybe God has a purpose in that. It is so important we be available for God to use us. I reckon the rejoicing in heaven when gays come to know the Lord must be absolutely deafening. I learned recently of a young gay guy who came to know the Lord through a Gideon’s Bible in a hotel room here in Brisbane. God is at work. Let’s be really encouraged!

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
November 8, 2009, 16:08

Wow! That’s taking pool cleaning and neighbourly love to a whole new level! Impressive.


Their relationship as a couple sounds very beautiful too.


Thanks for sharing that, David. 😀


How great that we’re seeing these things in life and in the bible and able to talk about them?


Ann Maree

Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
November 8, 2009, 17:00

sounds like you are living in a gay ghetto David…… 😆 😆 😆

deafant
 
Joined in 2009
November 8, 2009, 20:07

Thanks davidt I thought it was a good article overall – I liked the commonsense arguments like if the mob outside Lot’s house were homosexual would they have been interested in Lots daughters?


I like the biblical arguement used from Romans that Christ is the end of the law in conjunction with the letter to Dr Laura. Very few fundamentalists live the bible to a T – they usually pick what parts of the bible that they want to focus on.


I particularly like the way you showed the difference between the translations that for me is gold as this demonstrates the new translations take on new meaning via the words substituted or inserted – even though the “Authorised Version” is also a translation that has its own problems.


I also like the fact that the Kinsey Institute research has no record of people changing their orientation.


I really liked the letters of reconciliation from families and gay people in their own lives.


One thing did trouble me somewhat was the practicing of homosexuality. I noted the decision to not practice homosesulaity. I can respect that decision altho I dont agree with it. I think that to deny the expression of ones sexuality is not good imho, but thats my opinion.


I am not clear about one thing in relation to practice – whereby the paragraph below seems to support loving the sinner but hating the pactice of their sexuality:


If your line is to love the sinner, but hate the sin of homosexuality, please articulate that. The Pastor should have said, “Homosexual practice is an abomination” if that is what he believes. Always differentiate between the sinner and the sin.


And the paragraph below seems to nullify the above – I am not quite sure where this is going.


If I were to say to you that I hate your heterosexuality but I love you, it would be absolutely ridiculous. Your sexuality is part of who you are as a person. You cannot separate the two. It is just crazy to say to someone that you hate the sin but love the sinner.


Surely the practice of ones sexuality is a natural expression of that sexuality? Unless of course I am reading it wrong in which case I am happy to hear the correct intent.


Lastly I wonder what your take is on bisexuality?

davidt
 
Joined in 2009
November 8, 2009, 21:34

Hi Ant


Many thanks for your comments.


When I commented about Geoff (Tasmania) who said that his pastor said to him he was an abomination, I was trying to claim that from the pastor’s exegetical point of view, the pastor should have said homosexual practice is an abomination if that is what the pastor believed, rather than saying Geoff himself was an abomination. Sorry if that was not clear. I am definitely not saying I support the claim “love the sinner, hate the sin”. I strongly dislike that term.


My postion is Side A (GCN term) where I believe God does bless gay marriage so long as the people concerned have not known the Lord and rejected Him, worshipped idols and then if both those are true, if they have had a heterosexual orientation at some point, rejected that and practiced homosexuality. That is what I believe Romans 1 is saying when it is taken in context.


On a personal level, I don’t practice my homosexuality because I took vows to my wife 39 years ago. She is disabled now and is in a wheelchair. I am her carer. This is what I believe the Lord wants me to do with my life. She has more than enough problems without adding to those the problem of having a practicing gay husband.


Can I hasten to add, I am in no way judging others who have been in mixed orientation marriages whose marriage has ended. It can be a very difficult situation and my heart really goes out to them. I want to be as supportive of them as I possibly can.


Do I think about what it would have been like if I had been honest about my orientation, and the Lord had provided me with a wonderful husband and lived with him all my life? Absolutely, every day. He would have been one very deeply loved guy, I tell you.


You know, while all these discussions about Hebrew and Greek translations are very important, the real issue for me is how the Lord can use that knowledge to change people’s attitudes. And He can – praise Him for that, absolutely. It won’t happen overnight necessarily, but it can happen. The testimonies of Christians who are gay (in that order) can also be very powerfully used by the Lord to change people’s attitudes.


It can also be really important information for gays who are trying to reconcile the fact of being gay and being Christian and to try to reduce the risk of suicide among those.


When I tell gays here on the net or in real life, “God loves you”, it is news to many of them. Quite a few have said “I always thought God hated me”.

God is an absolutely wonderful God, isn’t He?


On bisexuality, I would like to think that if anyone enters a marriage, gay or straight, they remain faithful to the vows they take for the rest of their lives. It may mean they say “yes” to one and “no” to the other, but that is true of anyone I guess. I don’t want to be over simplistic, but it seems to me exclusivity is a hallmark of true and genuine love. We can’t change our orientation , but we can change our behaviour.

Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
February 7, 2012, 11:37

Just a question of two … in recent days I have been thinking about my sexuality, the Bible and God, in short, I was questioning whether there is any hope for me or other homosexuals (I took a step back from my recent progress) one of my questions which seems to go with what is being discussed here is. Assuming that certain parts of the Bible has been mistranslated as many have said both here and among some theologians, what is to say that the rest of the Bible has not been mistranslated ? We say that the scriptures which talk about homosexuality have been mistranslated and the Bible actually says nothing about homosexuality, so on and so on … the "original scripture's" have been used to justify this suggestion, which may have merit. But how can we be sure that people who make this claim are actually using the original scriptures?,


Assuming for one minute, that they are and parts of the Bible (supposedly ONLY the parts that relate to homosexuality or homosexual behaviour) has been wrongly translated, then why should we even bother reading it?

If there are mistranslations in the Bible, what value does it have? If one version of the Bible has been mistranslated, perhaps they all have. How do we know the Bible hasn't been lost in translation. Or that its gone so far from the original text that at the end of the day, it has become no more than any other book?


What if you are wrong, what if your interpretation of what certain Greek and Hebrew words actually mean, is wrong? What if "homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of God" as specified in 1Cor 6:10 is actually correct, what hope is there for us?


I've read the supposed mistranslations and yes, they appear to be just that and yes, some translators appear to have prejudices towards homosexuals and have allowed those prejudices to carry through into their translations. But what if that's not the case?


And Why would only the "gay passages" be wrongly translated and not the rest? it just seems odd to me.


Brunski

Mother Hen
 
Joined in 2011
February 7, 2012, 12:19

Hi David,


I've saved the site where you posted your article I wrote “What Does The Bible Actually Say About Homosexuality? to read later when I have more time. Even though it's a while ago you posted in, thanks so much for doing so.


Hi Brunski, it will be interesting to see what response you get from other's. Your questions are very valid, as you mull over coming out to your parents it's expected that some doubts have risen back to the surface. I actually do believe that there is other areas the bible has been poorly translated. I like David's statement that "I believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. However the translations are very definitely not inspired." I believe that a lot of what was written and inspired by God in bible days was very much written for that time and place in history and the culture of the day. I haven't quite worked out myself how all that fits into today's society. There are a lot of things, technology, roles of women, differences in our modern day society than bible times. Many of these are not talked about in the bible, so how does it all fit in with today. Because there are incorrect translations, because our society is different than that in bible days do we dismiss the bible? Do we chuck out the baby with the bath water? I don't think so. I believe the bible should be read in the context it was written, in the times it was written.


I think there is a lot of questions we may never get answered re the bibles intended message, maybe only those who wrote the text truly have a clear understanding. Think about how hard it is for all of us to correctly get across to the reader our meaning, the context, the emotions we are trying to express.


One thing I believe in my body, soul and mind and believe with all my heart that some people are born Gay. Too many prayers have been said (including your own) asking God to change them from being Gay. God has chosen not to change people, I believe it's he doesn't have an issue with the way they are, it's people who have the issue.


From all the stories on this forum, it's evident that so many struggle with reconciling their faith and sexuality. I wish I had the words and wisdom to just clear the issue up for everyone. All I keep coming back to is look at how much you have done to try and change who you are, all the programs you have tried, the prayers you have said. You know in your heart you are the way you are despite any efforts you make to be different, maybe you just have to rest and trust in that.


Wishing you peace and love.

davidt
 
Joined in 2009
February 11, 2012, 10:23

Hi Brunski


I understand your concerns and what I find helpful when dealing with similar issues myself is to read Acts 17:11 where the Bereans "received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if Paul said was true." This applies to any topic. Let's not accept anything we are told unless we carefully check it out first.


You mentioned how you wondered if 1 Cor 6:9-11 condemned us. This one is really important. In the NIV "male prostitutes" is malakoi in Gk which is correctly translated in the AV and elsewhere as "effeminates". There are many people who are effeminate and not gay. Being effeminate does not mean a person is gay. Most gays I know do not have an effeminate nature.


The word for homosexuality in NT times was arrenomanes and that doesn't appear in the Bible anywhere. In v 9 "homosexual offenders" is arsenokoitai in Gk. It was new word that Paul invented and does not appear anywhere in Gk literature before that. If Paul wanted us to translate it "homosexual offenders" why didn't he just use "arrenomanes"? Why did he go to the trouble of inventing a new word "arsenokoitai"? That is a serious question.


"arsenokoitai" actually means "male prostitute". Even the translators of the NIV couldn't agree with what it meant. It only appears in the NT two times. In 1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Tim 1:10. In 1 Tim 1:10 they translated the same word as "perverts". There is a world of difference between "homosexual offenders" and "perverts".


The other reason why this one is so impartant is 1 Cor 6:11 "And this is what some of you were". Many use this verse to try to claim that if you are a Christian you will no longer be homosexual, and try to use it to justify all sorts ex-gay therapies that can cause enormous problems, even suicide. Personally I have even been subjected to electronic shock therapy by a President of the Baptist Church over this very verse. I feel very strongly about it as you can imagine.


I have heard it preached at least 10 times that we get our word "arsenic" from "arsenokoitai" and how that is a clear indication of the poisonous influence of gays on society. "arsen" in Greek means "male" and has absolutely nothing to do with "arsenic". The Oxford dictionary says that "arsenic" comes from the Arabic "al zarnik". All those preachers LIED just to promote homophobia. See how important it is to check things out. What we hear in our churches on this topic has much more to do with promoting homophobia and church politics than it does about theology.


It is absolutely fine to be gay, and NO, it cannot be changed. I am really proud to be gay and I enjoy being gay very much and I hope you are too.


In Him

David

PS Many thanks for all your encouraging comments Mother Hen.

Peter
 
Joined in 2012
February 11, 2012, 16:25

Some theologians interpret "gadal" in this verse as indicating that David had an erection. However, the thoughts of David becoming sexually aroused after kissing Jonathan may have been too threatening for Bible translators. They either deleted the ending entirely or created one of their own.


Can you give refferences, reputable OT Scholars please.


Biblical Hebrew "Gadal" = indicate David's penile erection, how?
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