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What if we are wrong?

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Mr Summit
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2010
June 30, 2012, 11:01

This question "What if we are wrong?" comes up a lot, from my experience, with people after they have been exposed to affirmative arguments but they're just not quite ready to accept themselves in their heart. I can understand it. I've been there.


How you answer this question depends a lot on your view of God. Is God a cosmic policeman waiting for you to stuff up so that s/he can send you to hell? If s/he is than you are much better of staying at home, reading your bible, never exploring, never questioning, living a sheltered life. And many people do.


But I don't think of God like that. I spent years asking God to change me, and months researching and coming to terms with all this. I have done my very best. And I can't for the life of me imagine God punishing me for doing my very best.


On the contrary, I think God wants me to live my life to the full. I think s/he wants me to enjoy the world s/he made for me. I think s/he wants me to enjoy the way s/he made me. I can't imagine a God who'd punish me for doing my best, but I can imagine a God who'd be very disappointed that I wasted my life living in fear.


So I guess what I am saying is, rather than ask "What if we are wrong?" maybe you should ask "What if we are right?" What if there is acceptance and affirmation available to you and you are holding back because of fear? I believe that God loves you. And I believe that s/he cares a lot more about you being happy than s/he does about you living your life according to a set of arbitrary rules out of fear.

forestgrey
Chapter Leader
Joined in 2008
July 3, 2012, 22:51

Great comments, Mr Summit

ShadowBoxer
Moderator
Joined in 2005
July 8, 2012, 21:40

Hi there – theres a few ways to look at this….

One way is to take this verse in combination with Romans 3:23 (from the NIV "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God)," Let's combine this with "10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

What this tells us is EVERYONE is a sinner and there is no better or worse sin. And because we have sinned – irrespective of the sin, we are ALSO guilty of breaking all of the law)

Now this is why Jesus said to Not Judge our neighbours and to take the beam out of our eyes before we worry about the speck in someone else's eyes.

There are maybe 8 clobber verses AND they are controversial. For example – the traditional translation of arsenokoites was Homosexual – but John the Faster, Patriarch of Constantinople used the word as follows "In fact, many men even commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives." So the question is – how could a man commit homosexuality with his wife ? (of course he couldn't – the translation of homosexual is wrong)

And the old testament verse is up there with selling your daughters into slavery, stoning to death people who work on the Sabbath and the sin of wearing polyester blends (mixing fibres)

The vocal anti gay church ignores MOST of those commands and for no good reason they decide just one is important.

However there are many themes that run through the bible – that are much more strongly developed than homosexuality. Greed, arrogance, Deceit, hypocrisy. These are sins that are mentioned time and time again. in different ways. Jesus mentions these sins – but not homosexuality. Ezekial lists them as the (TRUE) sins of Sodom for which the city was destroyed. So I would say:

1) We know we are all sinners

2) We know the bible focuses on MANY sins with hundreds (if not 000's) of verses about them.

3) Homosexuality MIGHT be mentioned NO MORE than 8 times in the bible – probably less. Maybe not at all.

4) Homosexuality was not considered a major sin by the writer of the bible. They were MUCH more worried about other sins.

I would say – so what if we are wrong. If this was a focus of God – he would have made it a focus of the bible – and it's not. He would have used words that meant homosexual… not words we don't know. Why didn't Jesus talk about it instead of other sins? Did he make a mistake about what sins were important? That's VERY Dangerous theological ground. I believe what's in the Bible is important and whats NOT there is also important.

You can't have it both ways. If God wrote the bible then what's clearly there is what is important to God. If you decide that YOU know better than God and you can decide that 8 verses are more important than verses spoken by Jesus himself – talking about sins that are major threads though the whole bible – then you take away from the authority of God, preferring your own opinion which isn't backed up by the bible.

So I would argue – it doesn't matter if we are wrong. Focus on the Bible – focus on the commands we were given – don't make them up (and there's a lot of that which happens) – to look after the poor and the needy, give to the poor, do not judge others. These are Jesus' commands to us. Follow them because they are mentioned time and time again… old and new testament. Focus on them. The big churches are focusing on the Gay issue because it draws attention away from the commands they don't like (give all you have to the poor for example)

There are other ways to look at it – that give the same answer – follow your heart. If you believe God made you Gay (you didn't choose it) – then accept the gift and move on. I didn't choose it and I dont think God made me Gay to make me a sinner. I believe it's a gift – and I believe that if you turn away from it – you are turning away from something God gave you. Not sure it's a sin – (we are all sinners anyway remember) but I'M sure it disappoints God when we do that.

Oh and as for the word 'lifestyle' – I repeat what the others say… It's a word used to malign gays – by inferring we Choose to be gay. My Lifestyle is volunteering for Non profit organisations, Looking after my dogs, dabbling in my Garden, bushwalking and photography – and and movies and Work, Work and more Work. THAT'S my lifestyle. What's that got to do with ANYTHING ??? None of of these are sins in the bible and none of these are Gay activities..

Lover_in_aus, it would be good to know you mean by posting this. Precise definitions are important when you want answers on these things.

J
 
Joined in 2012
July 9, 2012, 07:46

In my own personal opinion I don't think God is disappointed in us for being who we are. For ten years I struggled with coming to terms with my sexuality. On the inside I felt persecuted (and will be forever onwards when I come out to my relatives and others as they do not understand) for who I am. I never chose to be gay, I mean to be honest, who would choose a life where many people hate you despite them not revealing any of their own sins?


I told my parents my deepest secrets only I knew about. I had 4, and 2 of them were biggies. They now know all of my secrets and I have nothing left to hide. It's a huge relief, and in releasing all your fears and secrets, Satan cannot get to you. I felt really bad telling my parents because these secrets were very personal and embarassing, but I make no apologies in being myself, and I believe God is thinking 'Finally, Jordan came to his senses and is discovering who he really is' ha ha 🙂


In honesty, I actually feel privileged to be gay. I can actually be myself now – fully vulnerable, exposed, and liberated. I also feel honoured to have this gift, because I feel as though I am being persecuted just like Jesus. If anything, this only brings me closer to God. Not only that but there's the old saying in Proverbs 15:1 "A gentle answer turns away wrath", and someone on Youtube said a very nasty comment to me, but I just politely told them that we all have our views and that I will not argue with him. I almost fell off my chair when he apologised!


I love being me, and I am now closer to God and attached to the bible than ever before – when I was hiding behind the facade of being heterosexual I was actually turning AWAY from God, so I have no doubt in my mind I was meant to be gay in order to realize who I am, accept myself, and trust in God that this is my plan. I believe I was born this way and I am really starting to love it 🙂

sarab
 
Joined in 2011
July 9, 2012, 18:11

I agree with and really like Mr Summit's question "what if we are right?".

I am not yet out to friends and family – i have a way to go here.

nor yet have I yet met a partner.

It has been almost a year since I began the journey (yes an overused word!) in accepting myself as gay – however I can now say I have no problem in praying to God for a partner – a woman – to share my life with. This is a lovely place to be and quite a shift from the person I was a year ago.

I agree with what others have said before – that if God has made me this way – and knows me intimately, then of course s/he will completely understand my desire to be with someone who is right for me. That person I am sure, will not be a man.

I spent too may years subconsciously for the most part – and at times consciously ignoring the possibility that I might be gay – because of the thought that it was "wrong". One of the many implications of this has been a kind of screwed up belief that my "self sacrifice" was somehow pleasing to God. How arrogant of me – how foolish to think that somehow by denying myself and ignoring the person I was made to be that I was somehow scoring "brownie points" with God. That's why I tread carefully around this question "what if we are wrong"? To carry this through to any conclusion that sees me denying myself as the person I am meant to be seems to be a slippery slope. It seems far more likely that our loving compassionate God would have us ask…. what if we are right?

Hope this makes sense

Sarab.



ShadowBoxer
Moderator
Joined in 2005
July 10, 2012, 15:10

As always – I welcome input on my posts.

It's a good question – what if we are right – because if we ARE right – then those who oppress LGBTIQ people are in fact committing sins themselves. A number of sins in fact.

So in fact by worrying about other peoples' lives they are causing themselves to sin.

I don't presume to know God's mind – but I suspect that all sins are NOT equal. The bible is pretty clear that telling lies and murder are pretty bad sins. Also to do something you think is wrong = can be a sin – even if the action itself is not sinful. Causing someone else to sin – deliberately – is, I suspect – a pretty bad Sin.

(So stopping someone from getting married – if they feel God wants them to marry – is a sin for those preventing the marriage) and this alone tells you that those who oppress LGBTIQ are merely using the bible as a tool – not genuinely studying it because if they really believed in all the bible said – then this would be a real worry for them.

However whether we are right or wrong we know three things

1. For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Note that there are no caveats there. It DOESN'T say straight people who believe in him. It DOESN'T say SINLESS people. It says WHOSOEVER.

2. We are all sinners – We are told that. Whether we have committed one Sin or another – We have sinned – yes – but so have the ministers that tell us we are wrong. EVERYONE has sinned. It doesn't alter point 1 above.

3. We are told not to judge others (and not just once – and we are told that directly by God – i.e. Jesus himself). I believe thats because no one but God can determine whether your sin is worse than someone else's. Gluttony is a sin – however some people eat when they get stressed and some people stop eating when they get stressed.

To Judge someone for eating (I believe) one needs to understand why they are eating etc.

For some there is NO temptation. For others there is a huge temptation. ONLY God can weigh that. No man. No minister. No theologian can weigh that and decide if someone is sinning or not or that whether his sin of eating too much is more or less than her sin of coveting – and so on. Let's assume that someone is intersex – when do they commit the sin of homosexuality? Leave it to God to worry about. One study of Gay men found a number had female brains. (The male and female brain is significantly different) and as far as behaviour is concerned – medical sicence shows the brain is far more important than the genitals. You can NOT look at someone and judge whether they are intersex or not. (Not with out a full brain scan and chromosome analysis and even then – there are cases that can't be decided) So ONLY God knows if someone is actually intersex. Just having the same Genitals is NOT ENOUGH to judge. Anyone who says otherwise is ignorant of BASIC medicine – or committing the sin of deceit (or both)

So even if we are wrong – who is actually to say it's a problem. The bible spends very little time talking (if at all) talking about the 'sin' of homosexuality. It spends a LOT of time talking about other sins. The sin of not looking after the poor. The sin of deceit and so on. Those are the sins the BIBLE focuses on. So what if we are wrong. The bible doesnt make an issue of it and Jesus can fogive us our sins. I would spend the same time worrying about this that the bible does (and EVEN if you assume that we are wrong and that ALL 8 verses talk about homosexuality and that somehow you have done the full scans and determined someone is actually 100% the gender you have assumed from their Genitals – then assuming you spend your ENTIRE time on the bible (no sleep) – then spending less than 1 minute a year thinking about those 8 verses (less than 0.0003% of the entire bible) would be spending more time on this issue than the bible spends. Do you think the major themes in the bible are more important to God? – I think so .

That's the way I look it it anyway….

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
July 10, 2012, 21:27

Hi Mr Summit

You said:


So I guess what I am saying is, rather than ask "What if we are wrong?" maybe you should ask "What if we are right?" What if there is acceptance and affirmation available to you and you are holding back because of fear? I believe that God loves you. And I believe that s/he cares a lot more about you being happy than s/he does about you living your life according to a set of arbitrary rules out of fear.


I love this comment and couldn't agree more. As I've gotten older, my faith has shifted to one where I take more responsibility for what happens. And this includes the sort of God I believe in. I mean I wouldn't expect my boss to hit me with a stick so why would I expect or want this of God? If as flawed humans, we can extend kindness and acceptance to one another, then surely God can manage this and so much more. God is love, not fear. Therefore our beliefs and actions need to be born out of love and not fear in order to be in sync with God.

Blessings,

Ann Maree



noddy holder
 
Joined in 2010
August 7, 2012, 20:46

Quote from Brunski on May 16, 2012, 10:07 pm

Hi lover_in_aus,


How are you? I'm with the others, I'm a bit confused as what your point is here, what is it that you are trying to convey?

But I am with you with the subject question, what if we are wrong? that is a question I have asked of this forum and of those who believe homosexuality is not a sin and that the Bible doesn't condemn it. That the Bible has been mistranslated and so on … what if we are wrong?

Do you think we are wrong Lover_in_aus?


Bruski


I have thought about that too. More in the early days of coming out than recently. I used to think that perhaps I would go to hell for being a gay man. My thoughts these days however is that notion is absurd. God is not going to send those to hell who sincerely seek Him and desire to live, as Anthony's favourite saying goes, authentically. I think sins like being judgmental, hypocritcal and hateful will receive a lot more attention on judgment day than which sex we were attracted to.



ShadowBoxer
Moderator
Joined in 2005
August 7, 2012, 20:55

I agree with this

I think sins like being judgmental, hypocritcal and hateful will receive a lot more attention on judgment day than which sex we were attracted to.


Its the Sins the bible spends its time on – mentioning them time and time again – and the Sins that Jesus actually mentions – that are the ones that are obviously the one God cares most about (thats why the bible focuses on them)

Sins that are hardly mentioned at all – that are mentioned using words – the meaning of which are lost in time (Homosexuality being one of these of course) – these are NOT the focus of the bible and accordingly are not the focus of any one serious about serving God.


I often imagine people on judgement day when they say to God – I spent my life fighting homosexuality – and he says – why didnt you spend your life actually doing what I commanded you to do ? Do not Judge, Look after the Sick and the Poor. Do not lie or deceive. Love your neighbour. How will they respond. Good intentions are no excuse.


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