As we all know – there ARE good reasons to debate whether the bible really condemns Homosexuality.

We know for example that Arsenokoites is only found used 77 times in ancient manuscripts overall – and 1 Cor 6:9 is the FIRST TIME we have seen the word used and John the Faster in Penitential which is dated to about AD 575 DEFINATELY uses the word to refer to a man sleeping with his wife "In fact, many men even commit the sin of arsenokoitia with their wives.” So while we DONT really KNOW exactly what that sin is – we DO know that its NOT homosexuality.

There is another issue with "Judging" – against the commands of Jesus himself – someone of the sin of homosexuality – and that is that there are cases where Medical Science can not determine someone's Gender. What we DO know is that your Genitals DO NOT determine your Gender.

Here is an interesting discussion on the issues the Olympics have with this very issue.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/30/science/la-sci-olympics-gender-20120730



"The International Olympic Committee has struggled with cases like these, variously using hair patterns, chromosomes, individual genes and other factors in their long-running attempts to distinguish men from women. All of these tests have been discarded. For the London Games, officials are going by a new set of rules that shifts the focus from DNA to testosterone, a hormone that aids muscle development, endurance and speed.

To a group of increasingly vocal skeptics, the very notion of gender testing is flawed and efforts to measure it biologically are doomed to fail.

and

Though most people fall neatly into "male" and "female" categories, some do not. The fact that there are people with physical or genetic traits of both sexes prompted the IOC to rethink its gender test.

Not only are there the very real issues of of Genetic or Physical markers for sexuality – but there are studies that suggest "the INAH 3 to be smaller on average in homosexual men than in heterosexual men, and in fact has approximately the same size in homosexual men as in heterosexual women." – "The INAH 3 is part of the hypothalamus. The INAH 3 is significantly larger in males than in females irrespective of age"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INAH3

This study – whilst NOT definitive – definately suggests that the brain may play an important role in same sex attraction. Other studies support this possibility (such as studies that show hormone levels in the mother can affect the development of the hypothalmus). Again – this is NOT visible externally but if someone has the INAH 3 of the opposite Gender to their genitals – its the INAH 3 which is really going to determine their sexuality.

What I believe this means is that when some pastor gets up and condemns Homosexuals – he is ignoring the fact that only God can decide what Gender he made someone – and you ABSOLUTELY cant judge Gender just by looking at someone. Sometimes we cant decide at all – even with scans, blood tests and microscopes. This is a good reason why God says to leave the Judging to him – because the Churches certainly cant judge this…. They simply are trying to judge a book by its cover – and we KNOW thats a bad idea !

What are people's thoughts on this ?

Here's an excellent article recently brought to my attention about Intersex issues.

http://crosslight.org.au/2012/07/01/10444/

Blessings,

Ann Maree

Great Posts there.

I loved that Documentary – "Orchids" and I think its well worth watching.

I avoided the term "Intersex" because I have to admit to not fully understanding the correct nomenclature. For example I understand Phoebe Hart received some criticism fo referring to it as a condition, and I also believe some people recommend adopting the term disorders of sex development (DSD).

Its an area I dont feel I know a lot about (in terms of a real empathic understanding) but I try.

I know that at the moment – Doctors usually Assign a specific gender to young children that are found to be Intersexed (sometimes requiring surgery) and that many in the intersex community are unhappy about this.

The thing is – it tells us 100% definately that those who condemn someone for a same sex relationship are clearly 100% wrong because you cant tell Gender by looking at a person. Sometimes you cant tell with all the tests in the world what gender someone is. So to judge someone in this area – to even worry about it in relation to other people (and them sinning I mean) just shows a HUGE ignorance of basic medical facts. Undeniable clear facts.

In fact – there is not even medical agreement on what is intersexed

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

"Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That’s not surprising, because intersex isn’t a discreet or natural category. What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation."

and

"So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex. In our work, we find that doctors’ opinions about what should count as “intersex” vary substantially"

The few places Ive seen that try to deal with this issue in their theology whilst maintaining a doctrine of Homosexuality is a sin are so wrong in their facts – (and they have to be to get anything that kinda hangs together). They claim its incredibly rare AND that its always visible to the naked eye and the article I posted shows how UNTRUE (and deliberately untrue) that is (although convenient)

The other interesting question is how common is it. Unfortunately – because medical science can decide clearly on a definition of what is and isnt intersexed – its hard to give a clear answer – as is shown here….

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Interesting to note though that whilst some forms are very rare – others more frequently than 1 in 100 people (and remember there are multiple forms – so the overall occurrence is more common than each individual form)

I like this quote from Wikipedia

"Foremost, we advocate use of the terms "typical," "usual," or "most frequent" where it is more common to use the term "normal."

Hi again

The intersex reality challenges our traditional thinking around gender. It also challenges those parts of the church who are anti gay and anti same sex marriage. The intersex person has both aspects of male and female so because of their body chemistry, you might argue that any relationship they have, either with a male or female, will be gay. And this is because they were made that way. And to say that's wrong is saying that God got it wrong.

I very much like how Cate put it in response to the crosslight article posted above:

… By definition an Intersex person has to be, at least in part, in a homosexual relationship… In Andie’s case should she pick her biological sex – which is mixed, her chromosomal sex – which is male, or her physical sex – which is female? Who gets to make that choice? Or are you suggesting that Andie should not be in a relationship at all Peter? Are you suggesting she should be kept from knowing the love of another in that way? Should we start genetically testing every couple that wants to be in a relationship to make sure only “medically recognised” people are allowed to be in a relationship? Perhaps you could help me and refer me to the Biblical passage (or passages) that tell us what a “medically recognised” condition is? I seem to remember some people in the 1940s making decisions like these on behalf of others and it ended very badly for more than six million people. God’s order is all of creation and all people and things in God’s creation and the point of the article is that we came up with a limited definition of male and female so we could try to understand what God created. Intersex people just prove that God’s creation goes far beyond our limited understanding and that there is a spectrum of biological sex, not just two sexes. On that basis it is impossible to define marriage as “between a man and a woman” as some would have us believe. God didn’t write the bible, men did in an effort to understand in our limited terms the things that God, and later God’s son, passed on to us. Our understanding of God’s creation is limited – at best. None of us can truly comprehend God and what God means, nor God’s works. None of us should be making limiting statements about what God meant relationships between two people, any two people, to be. The ONLY things I will ever presume to say on God’s behalf and those only because God’s son told us these things, is that God intended us love God above all others and that we should love each other as ourselves.

Blessings,

Ann Maree