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a peek in my inbox...dialogue with an ex-gay

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Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
June 17, 2008, 11:40

thanks for your thoughts.


I guess its not uncommon to find people in Christianity and any other religions for that matter, to feel they have corned the market on truth and enlightenment.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
June 18, 2008, 15:04

latest update


Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 11:21

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY



Hello Anthony. Thank you for your reply. Just a couple of queries, you are suggesting that you ‘do not have to come back to God but God came to me’. What are you meaning? With the greatest of respect, it is beyond me how anyone with even a limited knowledge of the bible would embrace homosexuality and forfeit their eternal destiny. Anthony you still have time. If you could explain to me how a practicing homosexual, with full knowledge of the Gospel of Peace, will escape condemnation and Hell, please advise with appropriate scripture. There are many Christians I know who struggle with homosexuality, but daily deny the flesh and pick up the cross. As you know, only those who persevere until the end will be saved. Love in Jesus,


From: Anthony Venn-Brown [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Wednesday, 18 June 2008 14:21

Subject: RE: CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY


HI David (not real name)


When I resigned from the ministry and left the church I really believed I was walking out on God. I had no intention of ever being a Christian again and considered that I was probably going to hell. I’d actually planned committing suicide at 50…….that way I didn’t think I would end up a lonely tragic old gay man (read more here http://www.ssonet.com.au/display.asp?ArticleID=7794 ).


In 1998 God came to me quite unexpectedly and I felt like I was born again….. again. It was a profound, very real life changing experience. At that point I knew that God accepted me as I am and that my sexual orientation was not an issue to him only the life I live.


I have a quite extensive knowledge of the bible…..have had that for years ……and of recent years gained even greater understanding……once I began to read beyond the English version I had for years and begin to dig deeper into the contexts of history, culture and the original languages. The verses I think you are referring to do not condemn same sex orientation as we know it today…..it does however issue warnings about homosexual rape, idolatry and prostitution. These are all the same for the heterosexual. Maybe you haven’t studied these verses in depth as you are a relatively new Christian and possibly applied certain verses to your negative experience as a gay man. If you are interested in learning more so that you are not condemning people that God has not condemned then I can suggest further reading.


From what I read in the NT every human being is saved by grace. Homosexual, heterosexual, male, female, transgendered, Jew, Greek, Gentile etc etc. The bible doesn’t exclusively condemn homosexuals…..although many Christians feel it is there right to do so.


Anthony Venn-Brown


if you are concerned about this dialogue being public then I have notified the writer. BTW……I’m making our dialogue public in a forum I belong to but have made sure your privacy is respected and that all indicators of who you are and where you live have been removed. I considered that as you feel so confident that you have the truth that you wouldn’t mind others knowing what you believe.


if he requests it be removed then it will be…..but will also possibly demonstrate the lack of conviction some people in this situation have. I remember only too well the way I was…….privately I would speak quite boldly….publicly I was more cautious.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 19, 2008, 09:47

I had to laugh when he used the term ‘practising homosexual’ imagining smoke coming out of your ears 😆


*shrugs* the problem is Anthony, your existential experience can’t be validated. If I didn’t know you like I do I would have replied with “suuuuuuuuure you did”. He is the one asking the questions so really, you don’t need to defend yourself but it doesn’t further your argument.


When people say to me “well why didn’t God change me?! If he changes other people” I always reply with “well why did God whisper in your ear personally and not mine?” Neither one has an answer but think about how much faith you have in the idea people can change, you think its a delusion because people so badly want to believe. I don’t see how believing God has spoken personally to you is any less of a delusion because you so badly want to believe its ok.


If there are other reasons for believing what you do, and there always are, they are probably the best ones to use when defending your beliefs because at least people can try and get a grasp on them. I’m not saying that you are making it all up but its useless to try and explain a subjective experience to someone in this kind of setting. I know you hate to dictate your theology and thats fine, but this guy asked for a biblical validation of gay Christianity and you gave him “God spoke to me”. It may have meaning to you, but the rest of us are left wondering and perhaps with the false hope that God will speak to us like that one day or even worse that the bible isn’t enough and somehow we need God’s personalised divine intervention.


While it may possibly indicate that he isn’t as strong as he thinks in his beliefs there are a hundred other reasons why he may not want it posted. He is a new Christian in what sounds like a very supportive environment, chances are he hasn’t been subject to argument or debate like this, it can be frightening and intimidating. I was raped for what I believed was right, sometimes people don’t want their thoughts plastered over the internet for reasons that go beyond whether we think they are right or not. Lets not jump to any possible conclusions.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
June 19, 2008, 13:26

latest update

I have a quite extensive knowledge of the bible…..have had that for years ……and of recent years gained even greater understanding……once I began to read beyond the English version I had for years and begin to dig deeper into the contexts of history, culture and the original languages. The verses I think you are referring to do not condemn same sex orientation as we know it today…..it does however issue warnings about homosexual rape, idolatry and prostitution. These are all the same for the heterosexual. Maybe you haven’t studied these verses in depth as you are a relatively new Christian and possibly applied certain verses to your negative experience as a gay man. If you are interested in learning more so that you are not condemning people that God has not condemned then I can suggest further reading.


Maybe you haven’t studied these verses in depth as you are a relatively new Christian and possibly applied certain verses to your negative experience as a gay man. If you are interested in learning more so that you are not condemning people that God has not condemned then I can suggest further reading.


Didn’t I answer it above Sandy. I never have been or never will be verse by verse arguer …….people do that I know like a slinging match throwing scriptures at each other. Some people delight in that kind of dialogue….I find it tiresome and unproductive….as it is usually only about interpretation.


In the last email from him I got rebuked and quoted about half a dozen bible references at me.


I guess I’m more the mystical/spiritual type christian than the legalist.


As yet I really don’t know this gentleman’s knowledge of those seemingly troublesome 6 passages.


Anyway……I’ve been a good boy and put him in touch with a journalist who is writing about ex-gays…..so he can tell his side of the story.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
June 19, 2008, 15:11

PS…..possibly this sort of thing is more about left and right brain. I’m more of a right brain person for sure.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 19, 2008, 15:47

Why is it when two people discuss scripture, upon which they disagree its always ‘slinging scripture’ or ‘bible bashing’ or ‘clobber passages’? 🙄


I understand why your not a fan, you don’t think the bible is the word of God, so discussion in the end is pointless because it means less to you than it would someone who believed it as God’s word. “Paul got it wrong” is always the out there, and fair enough too.


This guy has gone to the trouble of asking you why you believe what you believe, thats a step in the right dirrection if your goal really is dialouge. Maybe its just time to get it out there and say “a theological discussion of the bible is a moot point because I don’t believe its God’s word”. Chances are you will loose his respect as a Christian man, but then I get the feeling he doesn’t respect your views anyway. You need to be honest, because his question is ligitimate, why do you believe homosexuality is ok when the bible, taken as the word of God, condemns it? We know from past experience that conversation gets circular on this issue, but knowing where you stand with someone promotes understanding of them, and that is the whole point isn’t it?


Two people trying to understand each others views of the bible is not slinging scripture, it is not rebuking, it is questioning, discovering, imploring. Of course it can at times get nasty but good greif! This is the text upon which most Christians base their faith, it would be sad if people didn’t question each other. The bible holds one truth, for all people, for all time. Finding that truth is difficult and allowing fasle views to go unchallenged because its safer or more politically correct is cowadice.



orfeo
 
Joined in 2007
June 19, 2008, 16:46

Sorry Sandy, but I don’t see how you get from Anthony ‘not liking fruitless arguments about interpretation’ to Anthony ‘not believing the Bible is the word of God’.


I say this because I, personally, believe the Bible is the word of God. That’s a very different thing to saying that I believe the interpretations many people have of certain passages are correct. Including (but not necessarily confined to) some of the passages used to condemn homosexuality.


See the West Wing quotation in my sig.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 19, 2008, 17:04

Sorry Orfeo, Anthony has said previously that he does not believe the bible to be the word of God, something that is not apparent in this thread. I was working from knowledge gleaned from years of trying to hunt around in his brain and not a declaration he made in his last post. I totally get what you mean and I agree with you huge difference between disbelief and disbeilef in interpretation.


Underlying his whole conversation with this man though, in fact with any Bible believing Christian, is the validity of the bible. Your just not on the same page if you can’t agree on that, or at least understand each other.


I should have explained that I was working off a previous observation, I forget sometimes that other people read these and its not just for the eyes of the person I am replying too. My appoligies.



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
June 20, 2008, 11:54

hey Sandy…….from memory I dont think I’ve ever said that I don’t think the bible is the Word of God. I used to do seminars on the apologetics of the scriptures….authority and authenticity. Its an amazing book, inspired. What I would say is that it is our interpretations that are flawed. In most cases we dont know the truth ……we just think we do. History has shown us that what was once condisered ‘biblical’ truth was actually error. I no longer boldly tell people what they ‘shoud’ believe.


I dont engage in endless arguements over bible verses for the reason that I’ve seen where that leads to over my 39 years as a believer. (Sorry….not intending to pull the seniors card 😆 ). I’ve had endless arguements on many issues with other christians, mormons, JW’s, Pentecostal Oneness, Jesus Only people, Sabbath Keepers, Rapture, Millennium etc etc…..and decided long ago that these arguements are, in the end, a waste of time. This was long before I had a new understanding of the verses used to condemn homosexuality. So I dont want to revert back to something I’ve left behind…..no matter how much the other person needs me to or wants to engage me in debate. Does that make sense.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
June 20, 2008, 15:56

Sorry Anthony, obviously I mixed that one up, I think I try to hard to figure your theology out into absolute definitions (legalism) when your more fluid than all of that *shrugs* your eternally frustrating 😆 😆 I do remember you saying something about Paul and a different understanding of homosexuality now in the face of psychology and science. That at least implies that even if the conservative interpretation is correct, it is invalid. Or, in other words, that the bible is just plain wrong. Anyway if I am putting words in your mouth or creating a false impression then forgive me.


I understand where you are coming from, the seniors card probably has some validity in this situation. There are only so many times you can go there and do that before it starts to wear on you. You have chosen a tough job and I imagine that it can wear on you significantly.


I suppose I picked up on your comment about opening up dialouge as you said that was your whole purpose. While conversing about the bible is at times circular and pointless its not always akin to banging your head against a brick wall and is probably, in my opinion, the most important topic for discussion and the creation of dialouge.


I guess you are right, this is a legalism/spiritualism thing. For me the bible provides the only answers we have and for you your subjective experience is of prime importance. My point is, dialouge is about two people and spiritualism is subjective (ie: one person) so you don’t actually get anywhere by using subjective experiences to validate what you believe to be objective facts such as “homosexuality is ok with God”. If you were to say “homosexuality is ok in particular for me” then that is subjective but when you make a reference to the whole population, and validate it through subjective experience the rest of the world kind of nods and smiles blankly… or at least the legalists do. 😆


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