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anyone have anything they want to talk about...

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frogger
 
Joined in 2005
March 15, 2007, 18:15

I am looking for some interesting conversation in here people.


How about….. i noticed in another thread someone mentioned people from other religions going to heaven.


What are peoples thoughts do people from all religions who have a relationship with God, go to heaven..


I struggle with the christianity is the only way line of thinking. I can not see how someones faith in God, can be denied just because they dont believe in Jesus as the last prophet or son of God…..


thoughts people

Jannah



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
March 16, 2007, 16:31

OK so technically I said I wasn’t going to post again but I didn’t anticipate this topic coming up and it’s such a wonderful one to discuss. In contemporary society it is fashionable to assume that all religions lead to salvation because they all believe in a higher power and they are all about being nice to each other. If we as Christians are to believe the Bible, believe in Jesus and therefore believe his words we must concede that anyone who wishes to know the Father must first know Jesus. “For no one comes to the father except through me.” It is Jesus as God who forgives us of our sins and makes it possible for us to be saved. If we do not know Jesus then our sins can not be saved, and we can not come to the Father. Below are my arguments why the major religions contradict the doctrines of Christianity at fundamental levels and will not lead the believer to salvation.


Hindu’s do not believe in a future kingdom of God. Central to their beliefs is reincarnation – beings are trapped in a circle of rebirth until they merge with Brahman. Jesus however, taught that every individual would face God’s judgement after death. Jesus also taught that after judgement the faithful would experience a resurrection from the dead (modeled on his own) and eternal life in a ‘new creation’. For Hindu’s though liberation (moksha) is precisely liberation from individual bodily existence into the non-bodily unity of Brahman.


Hindu’s are quite comfortable to claim that Jesus was another incarnation of one of the Gods (Vishnu, Shiva) but the idea that he is a singular human manifestation of the one true God is unacceptable. Jesus’ teaching about grace actually counters the Hindu teaching of human responsibility and the caste system. Whereas Jesus taught that sins are forgiven in God’s mercy, the doctrine of Karma insists that sinful actions must reap their appropriate consequences. The caste system indicates that all people are born into a social caste priests, warrior kings, common people and servants. Servants do not have a share in Brahman and a chance at release. The best they can hope for is a ‘promotion’ in the next life. It is a result of their karma that they were born this way. This is at odds with the Christian idea that all people are born equal, that salvation is not gained through works, that we are reliant on a merciful God and that if we have faith we will all be saved.


Jesus’ insistence that humanity’s deepest need was forgiveness of sins would have struck Buddha as ignorant. The Buddhist Theravada doctrine claims that human beings possess everything they need to know to be both pure and wise. No divine assistance is possible or necessary. Also Jesus’ feelings and ours are at odds with Buddhist doctrine. Fear, anguish, compassion and so on are all response of someone captivated by ‘desire’. Detachment and tranquility are the characteristics of a wise person, for the enlightened know that the Self does not exist and that dukkha (suffering) is only the creation of the ignorant striving after pleasure, existence and non-existence.


Many people also claim that Judaism and Christianity and essentially the same. Yet they are poles apart on the question of the Messiah! While Christians believe in Jesus as the Christ, the Jews official stance is “Jesus of Nazareth was hung up on the day of preparation for the Passover for practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray” (Baraita Sanhedrin 43a). Around AD100 the classical rabbis pronounced a curse on the Christians, describing them has ‘heretics’, ‘enemies of God’ and ‘without hope’ in God’s kingdom. The curse is repeated to this day in conservative synagogues.


Craig, if you can get a hold of it there is an article in the Sydney Morning Herald called “The Love that Crosses the Great Divide” (24th Dec 2001) that tried to argue that Islam and Christianity are essentially the same as they both have Jesus. “Not the Jesus who is the son of God, admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God, who was born of the virgin and who ascended into heaven.” However the claim that Jesus was not crucified “they did not kill Jesus, they did not crucify him, but they thought they did…they knew nothing about him which was not sheer conjecture” (conjecture: forming an opinion without proof). A fundamental belief of Christians is that Jesus died and rose again. The Koran refutes the divinity of Christ. It also refutes grace, like Buddhism it claims that humans not only have the capacity to act in full accordance with the Truth, but also a responsibility to do so. Completely impossible to the Muslim is the idea that Christ died to save us from our sins. The New Testament emphasis on grace through Christ’s death robs Allah of glory. Allah has revealed the effective path of salvation (the five pillars of Islam) and men and women are obliged to walk it.

I also what to talk quickly on the idea of pluralism, the belief that spiritual truth is plural in form not singular. Or in other words that religions are simply different paths up the same mountain. Pluralism actually makes allot of sense to the casual observer and I had to do some in-depth study because at first glance I really took to the idea. It claims that all religions lead to one macro-truth, that is, that something infinite (God) leads us finite beings (humans) above and beyond us. McGillion from Charles Sturt University (such a nice guy, spoke to him personally) claims “the very diversity of religions…speaks to a truth – that all people in every time and place have felt the need to respond to the infinite…The various religious traditions are the ‘how’ of that response…All religions are truthful in far more important ways than some of their propositions are false.” In essence pluralism involves an acceptance of the sentiment of religion but a denial of the beliefs of religion. Religions are simply a response to reality in a specific cultural condition.


John Hick claims that all world religions are merely perceptions of reality rather than actual descriptions of reality. Each perspective is culturally determined. No one is ‘wrong’ its all cultural perception. This makes a weird kind of sense. But what Hick leaves out is the ‘person’ that does know the truth and is not influenced by culture. Pluralism patronizingly suggests that although the world religions are entitled to their perceptions of Reality, the truth of the situation is that this Reality is ultimately unknowable, and that all religious perceptions are actually illusions.


During my study I had to ask why the idea that all religions are just different paths up the same mountain? And why was it so important to me to discover if they were right or not? One idea is that religious conviction will lead to religious intolerance and consequently violence and discrimination. There is this idea of ‘new tolerance’ in our society that claims we must perceive everyone’s beliefs to be true, or at least ‘true for him or her’. But tolerance actually means to treat with respect and friendship even as you disagree. There is also the idea of ‘economy of effort’ dubbed by John Dickson. Let’s take Christianity and Islam for example. When a Christian affirms that Jesus died on the cross and rose to life and a Muslim insists that he did neither, we have a problem. To solve this you could look into it, examine history. But far easier is to claim that both are true ‘in their own way’. The issues I’m edging around is that our societies keenness to claim that all religions lead to God is part of a bigger problem of not having to think too-deeply about any religion. “An open mind is like an open mouth: its purpose is to bite on something nourishing. Otherwise, it becomes a sewer, accepting everything, rejecting nothing.” G. K Chesterton.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 16, 2007, 16:54

very very informative and well argued Sandy D …………Also another point, there is no other “religion” or belief system where God or a god would send his own to bear the consequences of sin, “imperfections” or “mistakes” so that we as a race of people would not have to be punished. And the punishment being seperation from God or this higher being and the torment of a lifeless darkness.


By confessing the Son of this God as Lord and saviour and the way, we are saved and have full access to God in every way, we are not rejected in any way. We dont have to make the way ourselves, since the way has been made for us. D and at a high price, I mean cruxifiction was one of the worst punishments one could suffer, nails in hands or wrists, thru the heel bone of the foot and literally drowning in your own fluids filling your lungs. The Son of this God who is also God dropped his position to become like us in every way and also to go through this torture, but with a great end. )

I dont know of any other “religion” or “belief” where you can be made one with the Creator or God and have a personal on going relationship with him and not have to work for it but just keep going and if you mess up just approach him, ask forgiveness then move on.


I was taught as a catholic that Jesus is the way, as a Christian Jesus is the way and many others teach the same but many others also do not, many others also judge wayy too much but many also do not.


And yes we shouldnt argue with people about such things, its better to agree to disagree but nothing wrong with a healthy challenge either. D wink



frogger
 
Joined in 2005
March 16, 2007, 18:05

i readily admit that i have read in entirety both of your posts… feeling a little lazy..

Just optioning out as devil’s advocate..


Does it say exactly how in the Bible you must know Jesus. Does it say you have to know him as God’s son, or as the messiah or any of those things. Or does just say no one comes to the father except through me???? In that casi, it could also be said the fact that they believe in him as a being, as a prophet, as a wise man, as a Buddha, as a reflectgion of God etc. would be enough to get to heaven…


I do not have a strict opinion on this topic, im just playing a little. I dont know my answer i lean towards the thoughts i have just shared, but am not committed to it.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
March 16, 2007, 18:54

Claiming that all we have to do is ‘know’ that Jesus physically existed to be saved is a bit of a cop-out (sorry but it is). Jesus said he was God, he was the Messiah. So to ‘know Him” we must know this about Him because thats who he said he was. You could ‘know’ me as my sister (we look very similar, we are both good people etc…) but do you really know me? Of course not! You know my sister. It’s the same with people who know Jesus as Buddha. It’s impossible because he wasn’t Buddha was he? He wasn’t a prophet, he wasn’t just a wise man, and he wasn’t a reflection of God. To know Jesus you must know who he said he was, that is, the Son of God, God on earth, the Messiah.


If we are to believe the word’s of Jesus in the bible and in effect ‘know’ Him we must believe who he claims to be and what he claims to have done. It is Christianity and Christianity only that knows Jesus because we are the only one that believes he is who he says he is. It is through his death and resurection as the Sonn of God that we are saved, it is this fundamental belief, this knowledge, that saves us. Not if we are a good person, or if we deserve it, because none of us essentially are or do. We were created specifically for the glorification of God, we can not do this if we don’t know Him and we have not served our purpose and we deserve to be rejected by God.


PS: there is a thing about Hillsong on Today Tonight which is saying some pretty negative things about it. Has anyone seen it? Thoughts?



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 16, 2007, 19:38

I see what you are saying Sandy, that yes, Jesus is the character of God himself the creator of the universe, the earth and of people. To know God is to know Jesus, since Buddha or Vishnu or “The Mother” were not written to be the express image in every way of the Father, God. The Bible even states that, heres the message version


Going through a long line of prophets, God has been addressing our ancestors in different ways for centuries. 2 Recently he spoke to us directly through his Son. By his Son, God created the world in the beginning, and it will all belong to the Son at the end. 3 This Son perfectly mirrors God, and is stamped with God’s nature. He holds everything together by what he says – powerful words! The Son Is Higher than Angels 4 far higher than any angel in rank and rule.


So even of there were “others” or a long line of God speaking in various ways, there was this one time in history when we got “the” one. Being Jesus.


Its a great topic to start to discuss Frogger, it certainly makes us search the scriptures to back why we believe the way we do. There are other scriptures but it would probably take up everything lol D


I had no idea that they were ripping Hillsong apart on Today Tonight. In regards to salvation and a number of other things they are doing a great job, unfortunately you will not find a perfect church anywhere, they all have their flaws, we r not in heaven yet wink but at least salvation at the best part is one thing most agree on being in Jesus.



Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
March 16, 2007, 20:13

I’m not really sure what it was all about. I think some people were arguing that they could really, physically heal people in the name of Jesus and they quoted some stats about the number of people who leave hillsong because of their “opressive” practises. LOL they wouldn’t last five minuites in my chruch if they think hillsong is bad. To be honest I wasn’t really listening and it was on all of ten minuites ago so I’m not surprised you havn’t seen it. Today tonight is about as reliable as cityrail so I wouldn’t worry too much, it’s usually a bunch of rubbish. Have no idea why it was even on…



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 16, 2007, 20:57

That they could what???????? heal?????? far out you and I know Sandy I would be the first one there and the first one to testify “look at me Im healed”…………sure it happens and sometimes its a process but not all the time and its sad that when it doesnt happen to some instantly the person receiving get the blame for some reason or another. You are right, City Rail and Today Tonight work on a similar schedule lol



frogger
 
Joined in 2005
March 17, 2007, 00:00

my brother is one of the people involved in TT and he has said to me that they just rehash all the stories… hardly ever creating new ones and that it is all made up…. he is worth believing too



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 17, 2007, 00:17

Really????????? far out…………..the things we learn. roll


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