in 2008, I think the cause of finding God – in oz, for us queers is a pretty lost cause especially in any of the main stream denominations… sure there are pockets of hope here-and-there and if you’re geographically close – good luck to ya… but after an initial eurphoria of discovering such a group – you’re struck down again by the reality that this group, is but a marginalised largely gettoised group of drowning disparing fringe dwellors who are clinging to each other in their final days of hopelessness….

your only hope of finding God is to venture over seas and check out what’s happening in the States or the Uk… and hopefully be charged enough to bring whatever of the spirit you can garner back to oz and commence a renewel movement here.

connecting back to God in a post modernity world is difficult enough for most folk…. but it’s almost impossible for a queer christian – given there are so few identifiable connections to the way we lead our lives, our current thought processes and our sense of alienation from theology

what’s needed is a ‘queering’ of theology and of the church to enable the rainbow gang to reattach itself to the mythical rainbow serpent of faith

this means re-engaging scripture in a queer hermeneutic critique, making of the church our own – encouraging the use of inclusive language and rites of passage that are unique to our clan – rituals of coming out, same-sex marriage, etc.

in church we need to develop ways to queer-the-church, and church-the-queers!

and maybe then we’ll have of ourselves a God whereby we can relate to… in the end ‘she’s not that all too distant afterall, folks’.

Thats an interesting point Tez, someone with a mental illness of sorts. If we went verbatim on what the bible says about God being the same toward everyone and that he makes no allowances for anyone since we are all one under Christ, then regardless of whether someone has a mental illness if they sin then according to the sticklers of quoting stuff then even with mental illness it would make no difference to God, you sin you lose salvation whether you have a problem or not.(of course i dont believe this).

As we know someone with mental problems are not in control of their actions even if they are aware of them, so sounds silly that someone would say that a person with these problems is lost forever or can lose their salvation, to them it is natural to act that way because that is how they are wired and theirs nothing they can do to change it not even medical science completey. Can God heal that?? of course but i personally havent heard many who have been healed and they died that way believing God and for their healing and still behaving in certain manners. God looks at our heart and who we believe in. Jesus understood where people were at and he is the reflection of the Father so God understands us no matter what we do and why. I think his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts come to mind, how dare we even suggest to understand it all even with the bible, even Paul wasnt silly enough to say he did, we only know in part he said, so as much as we have its all a part of that part, so we can only go by what we know and the revelations we get along the way, no where does the bible say that revelation stopped with the last apostle, we are still getting revelation about stuff and it will never stop because we only ever still know in part.

So what I am getting at is this, what about us who are wired toward same sex?????? and for those who dont believe we were born gay/lez then i am interested to know their view on why we are attracted in that manner shock I personally certainly didnt choose it, I know that much.(by saying what i said im not suggesting we have a mental problem.)

Wow ok there are two big issues here that I imagine I am semi-qualified to answer.

1. If we are not born gay or lesbian then how does it come about?

2. Why are Christian family members so judgemental of gay relatives?

I’m a little surprised the first question came up considering the amount of information avalible on the topic, information that I think we have all read at one stage or another. No one is born with a sexual preference per se but orientation develops during the ‘formative’ years of childhood and continues to solidify until the end of puberty. Overbearing mother, absent father, sexual abuse, emotional neglect, negative attitudes shown by authority figures towards the oppisite sex and so on are all aledged contributers in one way, shape or form. Of course there are people out there who will say they get along like a house on fire with their parents and were never abused so it can’t possibly be true. “shrugs* its obvious that the whole issue is more complex than what is written above and maybe we will never know all the contributing factors, Primarily the idea that homosexuality is not innate is a theological one and not 100% vertifiable by psychology (note also however that the theory that homosexuality is innate is not 100% vertified by biology or psychology).

When my own father came out I was in a great position to be a tower of strength, hope and encouragement for him. However, what actually eventuated could quite accuratly be described as the complete oppisite of all those things. I laughed, I refused to believe it and then the cold silent treatment insued. I should have understood better than anyone being attracted to the same sex myself! I know it sounds like a cop out but nothing prepares you for the news that someone in your immediate family is gay. For those that see being gay as a bad thing its even worse. I am not suggesting that my behaviour or anyone elses is ok, not at all, but the shock is incedible. People overreact. In many cases after a couple of months family members are able to deal and can be civil.

I don’t think those that continually reject their gay relatives are necsessarily gay haters at heart though, some maybe but not all. The mass reasons for homosexuality mentioned above tend to ‘blame’ the parents for alot of stuff and parents can feel both guilt and resentment. Quite rightly most of the time they are not impressed at being blamed for whats going on with their children and can take it out on the kids. Another big one is parents not being able to get over their hopes and dreams that they had for their kids, ones including white dresses and wedding rings with the pitter patter of little feet, they are big things to have to come to terms with.

We all know that it takes gay people some time to come to terms with their own sexuality, to explore if its real or just a phase, to accept the consequences like not getting married or having kids and even becoming apart of a community of gay people and/or finding a partner before we come out to our families. We are able to come out because we have spent months or even years working through these things. We can’t spring this news on our families and expect them to be ok with it straight away and to understand, it took is years to understand it ourselves! I have often thought I would have handled it better if it was my mother comming out insted of my father because it least I would ‘get it’ then. To me men are not attractive and its difficult for me to get my head around the idea that people do find them attractive, I just don’t understand it. I think our heterosexual families feel the same sense of confusion and ‘not getting it’ when they try to imagine us with someone of the same sex.

Just my thoughts.

What a great question! Thanks so much for asking Mark I am sure there are heaps of people on this forum who have asked it themselves at one stage or another, me included!

Your right the documented cases of change are infrequent. What is more frequent is the assertion that attraction to the same sex lessens significantly and attraction to the oppisite sex develops. It’s difficult to know whether this is due to repression of homosexual feelings or not, its certainly a possibility and probably happens in more cases than not. I’, right there with you on the notion that it’s really difficult to change and almost impossible to do a complete 180.

Questions like why do some people change and some not are like asking why do we live in affluence while others die of starvation? Why are people born disabled? Why are some really attractive and others not so much? In the end we can only ponder. You see the story of Joseph in the bible, he probably asked a variation of that question, why me? Why was I born into this ungodly family? Why do they presecute me Lord? But as we see God uses the situation for good, he has a plan all along. I believe that God uses all the things above for God if we let Him. The starving person may be able to develop a closer relationship with God because they are not distracted by mundane consumerism, the disabled person may develop skills of perserverence, determination and so on which could help them in a ministry career… We don’t know what the plan is, we do know that you are right (gotta love that half of this sentence 😆 ) the bible does say God gives good things to those who ask. So what does that mean?

If you read the passage in context you will see that Jesus is talking about the spirit. He alludes to pentecost in earlier parts of the same passage and basicly concludes that the great gift which the Lord will give you is a spiritual one, the holy spirit and to get the spirit all the diciples needed to do was ask. Obviously the diciples recieved the spirit in an unusual way and Jesus is talking dirrectly to them, we don’t necessarily have to ask for the spirit in the same way. The metaphore of the father giving his child goods is used to impress upon the diciples the enormity of the gift of the spirit and the amount of usefulness and good it will do them and their ministry.

Because I conceed your point about change being difficult and not particularly reliant on prayer I believe that the ‘good gifts’ the gay person will recieve are most probably spirtual ones as well, heavenly ones to be exact. Like all Christians we will recieve communion with Christ when he comes again and be heirs to the throne of righteousness… Heterosexuality looks pale in comparison. I know its not an answer thats going to satisfy you, I have trouble with it to at times because we want to good gifts now! We want all the heavenly contentment on earth. But thats not the way God opperates, we live as aliens in the world trying to uphold biblical standards in a world that rejects them and rejects us, its not easy but then God does some of his best work through suffering as Jesus’ experiences would confirm.