Hey Jordon

You have really put some thought into this…. and I ABSOLUTELY dont profess to have the answers – this area is amongst the most controversial area in theology.

I wouldnt even presume to tell people what is right BUT I will try to give you some food for thought..

This is an area i dont tend to spend a lot of time thinking about and the reason for that is because of several verses

Matthew 24

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 13

30I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

32“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alertf! You do not know when that time will come.

These verses (and I think its worth noting that these are reported in Multiple places in the bible – which tells us they ARE important and God really wants us to take note of them) – tell us two things.

No one knows (or knew but more about that later) when the "End" times will come. NOT EVEN Jesus knows.

So my thinking is that we will not know. There is a reason this is in the bible but the reason why is not to tell us when – but to show Gods prophetic power AFTER the event (this is a tease on a point I will make later).

Secondly Jesus tells us – that the end times WILL COME DURING THE LIFETIME of people alive when he spoke those words. These and other verses make it VERY clear that the apostles believed THEY would see the end times.

and in fact – the END actually did come – in 70 AD when the Temple was destroyed. The old covenant was wiped away and it was time for the Kingdom of christ. For the Jews – this was a time of terrible destruction, Death by sword and famine was everywhere and the Jews were scattered across the earth. The death and suffering were EXACTLY as prophesied.

Josephus ( – an early historian – and I can recommend you get a copy of his writings – whilst you cant rely on all he writes – he is a very interesting read) says that

Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done

Here are some links on this topic

http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/a11pws.htm

http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29

Now the key to understanding the bible in this area is the word " Παρουσία" – Parousia or Presence and is used in the New testament to refer to the second Coming.

One of the views on this is called Preterism and here is what Wikipedia says about this view

Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible, especially Daniel and Revelation, as events which have already happened in the first century A.D. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

The writings we have written by the early church show that this is what they believed in at the time (So the people CLOSEST to Jesus's teachings believed in this view. Its also 100% consistant with what Jesus says – that this generation will not pass before these things happen.

In fact – Eusebius of Caesarea (200 – 300 AD) says

But the things which took place afterwards, did our Saviour, from his foreknowledge as THE WORD or GOD, foretell should come to pass, by means of those which are (now) before us. For He named the whole Jewish people, the children of the City; and the Temple, He styled their House. And thus He testified, that they should, on their own wicked account, bear the vengeance thus to be inflicted. And, it is right we should wonder at the fulfilment of this prediction, since at no time did this place undergo such an entire desolation as this was and he tells us we should wonder at the the fulfilment of the prophecy and given Jesus says not even he knew when the second coming would be – this view is also consistent with his words on this area as well.

There are some other bits of information Ill mention just to give you more food for thought.

Doctor Nyland notes this about the word Antichrist

In another instance, there is much talk and speculation in some of the Christian community as to who the “Antichrist” could be, despite the fact that there is no mention of a single “Antichrist” figure anywhere in the Bible. The word only appears in the First and Second Letters of John, only briefly, and is identified as those people (plural) who do not agree that Jesus the Anointed One has come in human form.The word is NOT (my emphasis added) mentioned in Revelations. Nyland, Dr. A. (2011-12-12). Gay Christian Study New Testament With Extensive Notes on Greek Word Meaning and Context (Gay Christians, Lesbian Christians) (Kindle Location 381).

Most secular scholars would say the best interpretation for this term is that antichrist doesnt refer to one specific person but anyone "Anti Christ". Other views come from trying to put something into the bible that isnt there in order to support an otherwise shakey interpretation.

I would also note that whilst I am not catholic _ I have catholic God Children and so (as per my oath in accepting to be God Parent) I make a strong effort to encourage them in their Church life. One thing that is foreign to protestants is the special role that the pope plays. Pope actually comes from the Greek πάππας (pappas) and means "father". The pope has "Divine Right". The second Vatican council says this about the power of the pope. "This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown so that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will."

Australia and New Zealand are fairly irreligious countries. For example – In South America you will see that catholicism permeates their entire lives. They have crosses in their houses. They frequently cross themselves and when you fly most of the plane will cross them selves frequently and many will be using their rosary beads. For these people the pope is MORE than human and for those who have grown up revering a particular pope – his death in no way prevents him from interceding for them with God. Catholics would say they DONT worship the pope but to protestants it often can look like they do. (I make no claim either way). Remember this is the church that reveres relics (including bones etc of long dead saints).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm

This even happens here in our countries and one relic is traveling through Aus now (actually theres probably others as well but …) http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2012/10/22/3615843.htm

A 400-year-old Catholic relic of the right arm of St Francis Xavier is travelling through regional South Australia.

The relic has visited Barmera and Pt Pirie and will travel to Pt Augusta and Whyalla before heading to Western Australia as part of the Australia-wide tour.

So my point is the reason there is a webcam in the popes tomb is purely because many catholics will still be praying for the popes intercession and so for them to see that will be a great religious experience for them.

One reason that I dont spend a lot of time on this is because NOT ONLY did Jesus say the end times would happen in the lifetimes of those he spoke but if you study history you will see MANY TIMES that enormous numbers of people were convinced the end was night – and then nothing happened.

The churches that teach that have picked date after date and been wrong.

I mean – here are some of them

Pat robertsone In 1980 said on The 700 Club (a program named after the approximate age and/or weight of anyone who watches it) "I guarantee by the end of 1982 there is going to be a judgment on this world." He believed that as of 1980, the Anti-Christ was about 27 years old and that Armageddon would start in 1982 followed by 7 "nightmare years" of intense suffering.. Some claim that the audience he has is up to 60 Million people. Even those who oppose him conceed close to 10 million.

William Miller and his follow up Samuel Snow – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Miller_%28preacher%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment

There are entire books written on this and its impact on American History – and this belief inspired the Seventh Day Adventist churches.

Joanna Southcott http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Southcott

Montanus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism – although they disappeared about the 6th Century AD – they were spread right across Christendom and he prophesied the "end Was nigh"

Johannes Stoeffler who predicted a second flood would occur in 1452. . People sold their waterfront property even if they lost profit and an elevated fortress was built at the Priory Church of St. Bartholomew the Great with two months worth of necessities. Boat builders became filthy rich as families commissioned arks to be built to protect themselves when the flood arrived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_St%C3%B6ffler – one guy even built a three story Ark !

(Some more on that here http://www.diatribemedia.com/2010/02/14/the-end-is-always-here/)

There are so many of these – I cant list them all but have a look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

In fact – In the assemblies of God churches I grew up in we were taught the panets would align and the end of the world would come – based on the Jupiter effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_effect I know people who gave away all their money based on this teaching and now are struggling terribly because it didnt happen and they listened to that teaching.

The pastor that taught this was Barry Smith http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Smith_%28New_Zealand%29

and Im sure some of the readers will remember him well .

Jordon

actually – I used to be the same – a deep fascination with end times and prophecy.

at the risk of sounding old – I wonder if it's just an age thing – young people are fascinated by these things.

On the other hand I have seen so many schools of thought (and I'm still in my 40's btw I'm not THAT old) that have swept the christian world and are now forgotten. Some modify the dominant theme (that is leave their marks behind in the way people think) and others sink without a trace..

As you saw in that wikipedia article there are ALWAYS people saying the end is nigh etc.

but in fact the world is more stable and better to live in now than in many times across history. Would be open to debate but I would think that world wide – that the only other time comparable to this would be the bronze age when there were amazing laws and a peaceful trading network that stretched from the USA (yes – lake superior copper) to south america.

ive also seen many things like spirit science come and go. When I was young there was a writer Carlos Castenada who taught all this spiritual knowledge. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda – He sold 8 million books in 17 languages. Before that it was the Age of aquarius – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_aquarius where they taught peace and love. (Im not sure that you will have heard of these – BUT I hope you have heard of the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxSCAalsBE)

Then there was NLP – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

Then there was the Secret http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%28book%29

This guy is saying the same thing – "You create your own reality".

They all have a core thread to them.

There was a book written in the 60s called Psycho-Cybernetics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho-Cybernetics

Maltz found that his plastic surgery patients often had expectations that were not satisfied by the surgery, so he pursued a means of helping them set the goal of a positive outcome through visualization of that positive outcome.[3] Maltz became interested in why setting goals works. He learned that the power of self-affirmation and mental visualisation techniques used the connection between the mind and the body. He specified techniques to develop a positive inner goal as a means of developing a positive outer goal. This concentration on inner attitudes is essential to his approach, as a person's outer success can never rise above the one visualized internally.

This was groundbreaking at the time and was as far as I hav been told – the start of a succession of people preaching variations (altered for the time and the target market) that your thoughts influence the world around you.

There are other schools that have taught this. I have seen this in the Asian martial arts and in eastern religions as well. I explored some quite obscure traditions in my youth – some of which I can't even tell you about but this is a truth that is found in many arcane schools of knowledge.

And it works too – within certain limits.

Spirit science is taking a cop out when they say its not germs or virus's that make you sick but its your thinking. Try picking up dog poo or a dead rotting corpse and then eat a meal. No matter how positive you are – YOU WILL GET SICK. (and yes they tell you that's the mind out of sync with your actions and that's a cop out too) However I know – and there are plenty of studies on Hypochondriacs. They think and believe they are sick and often aren't.

I ended up resolving this for myself using this example – If I walk into a room containing a hungry tiger – it will eat me whether I believe it's there or not.

I'll put a small caveat in here – there is no doubt the mind is powerful. I was discussing the research of quantum affects and the mind on the weekend – (an area that is really exciting at the moment and may well provide explanations for many esp like events through quantum entanglement and other such effects) and we were talking about the well known experiments – where you hypnotise someone and tell them you are putting out a burning cigarette on their skin. Then touch a pen to their skin that THEY have been told is a burning cigarette and They WILL get the blister and the burn. The mind IS unquestionably very powerful but this is OLD science. Known and explored for many many decades.

Theres a lot of research in to placebo's – do you know about that ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo The placebo effect is where you give someone medicine or pretend to operate etc… telling them its a new wonder drug etc… and in fact give them sugar. There is a real and measurable effect where people will improve when they think they have been given medicine.

But again – any good health practicioner OR teacher will use this. its OLD science and it works but there are limits. You can take these things so far but take them too far and the results can be awful.

Here is one example – (and I can tell you these come up in the courts regularly) of how tragic the belief that you can overcome all physical illness without going to the doctor. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205306/Russel-Brandi-Bellew-Faith-healer-parents-avoid-jail-Austin-Sprout-16-dies.html

This one was due to them wanting to pray but there are 000's of tragic examples. I have a close relative who wa a homeopath and he believed that homeopathy and positive thinking would cure him of cancer. It didnt even slow it down.

There are many christian denominations that believe along those lines also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

Christian Scientists believe that sickness and disease are the result of fear, ignorance, or sin, and should be healed through prayer or introspection

One interesting one are the snake handlers – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling These are a small christian denomination that believe that if they have faith they can handle deadly snakes with no harm. Practitioners believe serpent handling dates to antiquity and quote the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Luke to support the practice: "And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover". (Mark 16:17-18)

and

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you". (Luke 10:19)

Now as to how effective is it – have a read of this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/31/veteran-snakehandling-pas_n_1559762.html

This guys father died doing it and he died doing it.

What am i trying to say ?

I am not saying these are all wrong – I believe there is a core of useful truth there. There is a lot of research that shows positive attitude and thinking etc can make a substantial difference to a persons life. BUT the trick is knowing how far you can take it. Reality exists without as well as within – and if someone drops a piano on you (metaphorically) no amount of positive thinking will stop you from being as flat as a pancake.

This spirit science just sounds like the same old same old to me – BUT im not the target market and you would be exactly the age group they would be targetting. And wisdom takes time and experience.

There are number of claims they make in the videos that are factually wrong – what I am interested is that

What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know (which I really enjoyed but which was the same message many have spread just jazzed up and modernised. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know!%3F&quot😉 discussed the Ice Crystal work of Dr Emoto. Unfortunately – the studies by Dr Emoto are not well designed and his results contradict known physics. e.g. Dr. Emoto’s procedures indicate that his samples are frozen at -25°C, and his ice crystals are formed at -5°C. According to Figure 3, these temperatures should produce mostly column crystals rather than plate crystals, yet not one of Emoto’s published photos show a column crystal. This makes Dr. Emoto’s data suspect (as they appear to conflict with the findings of well-respected researchers) and indicates the possibility that Emoto excluded non-supportive data from his publications.

http://is-masaru-emoto-for-real.com/

Its also worth noting that Emoto’s Journal article is not a scientific report, but a three page long “photo essay.” which is a very different thing and that there are no other backup studies that produce his results anywhere…. despite many scientists being intrigued and looking at this work. Whilst such results are beguiling – I was brought up on many such claims and my experience is that the people who live in a world where such claims are believed without evidence – and who dismiss science and engineering (and modern medicine) – are rarely happy or balanced in their life – despite their enthusiasm and strong beliefs. (So Im not saying i think this stuff is all wrong – but Im saying some people lose a sense of balance and that doesnt do them any good). I think SOME of their ideas are worth adopting but in my opinion its a mistake to just accept all they say as truth without looking for the other opposing opinion. Some of it will be of great benefit… and some wont be. (Many of them will be seeking power and money – e.g. Scientology and SO many others). Remember "facilis descensus Averno" (Its easy to go to hell or more commonly – the road to hell is paved with good intentions ). I dont mean literally go to hell for sinning but I mean – getting caught up in stuff thats wrong can mess up what you might do with your life. A great example of this is one I gave in my previous posts of people who gave away all their savings because the church told them they were in the end times. They had good intentions but now they are in poverty and struggle (and many that I know are extremely bitter as a result).

Note I'm not saying that spirit science is bad or will do that to you – I'm just saying don't rush into any beliefs – they seem to me to be like many other teachings (and I could be wrong) and so learn what you can from them but keep a certain amount of skepticism handy at all times. (in other words – keep a sense of balance). ( I can be pretty sure that the assemblies of God churches I grew up in would consider that teaching demonic and evil New age lies but they thought that about Kermit the frog too so i try to keep an open mind …)

If you are interested in the power of the mind – there is heaps of really interesting research on this at the moment although cutting edge research tends to be quite heavy to wade through… but you might find the TV series (a number of them) by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derren_Brown interesting.

Hope thats helpful….

Hi Jordan and Shadow Boxer

Jordan you said:

"There's still world war 3 and 7 years burying the dead to happen, from my theory/understanding of revelation anyway."

I thought the war on Iraq was WW3? Can someone confirm or correct this?

Shadow Boxer:

Don't forget Jesus said all these things would happen WHILST THE GENERATION HE WAS SPEAKING TO WAS STILL ALIVE. " This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Yes I've heard that said before and believe what Jesus said.

For thousands of years people have been preaching various end time doctrines. The end has been predicted to have occurred many times before now and hasn't happened in the way we thought. For Y2K, people were stocking up water and non perishables because they believed there would be a computer melt down at the beginning of the new millenium in 2000. And guess what? Nothing happened. Thinking of end times can be dramatic and intriguing but does it make us love others more? Does it make us more wise in our dealings with people? What's the underlying purpose or agenda of the teachings? There have been many cults who have used these sorts of doctrines to instill fear, control people and isolate them from mainstream society. And then they have managed to control their followers' finances and lives.

As for the sounds in the links, the one for the link in Melbourne sounded quite vibrational, a bit like my singing bowls but not as high pitched. So that seems like techtonic plates moving and creating a vibrational hum. That fits with the scientist's views.

The earth, planets and all living things are made up of energy and we relate unconsciously via energetic exchanges all the time whether we are aware of it or not. We send out signals that others pick up on an unconscious level and in this way we attract and repel various types of people. Some of us are more sensitive than others and so pick up on these sorts of things and some have no idea. I believe we are more than our bodies, made up of a spiritual person housed in a physical body. And our bodies have chemical and energetic processes going on in them all the time. So there are things happening at spiritual and cellular levels that we don't see or perceive (although some people do) and there parts of our brains that we don't even use. And so there are many things we don't understand and many possibilities yet to be uncovered and new things being discovered all the time. I also definitely believe in chakras (but am fine with the fact that you don't). I believe we have an energetic body, and chakras are merely energy centres at various places throughout the body.

As for the symbolism in the book of revelations, I really don't have a clue. When people share the symbolism of their dreams with me, I don't try and interpret these because I think only the dreamer can really come up with the answers. Of course I will help them explore the dream alongside their feelings and current events but an interpretation has got to ring true to the dreamer and not me as the observer. And so I approach revelations and other mysterious parts of scripture with the same outlook. There are many things I will never know because the biblical authors and many historical clues are lost to antiquity.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

Jordon

I can assure you that the early church and many learned scholars believe that all those prophesies are fulfilled. They know all the verses and ive sat through debates on this that last weeks.

There are a number of ways to explain ezekial but i thought you might find this blog post interesting because its written by someone who once believed in futurism and after careful study now believes in preterism.

http://preteristpost.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/identity-of-gog-and-magog.html

remember, if you dont believe it you have to explain why jesus was wrong when he said all those things would happen in their lifetime. to be honest i find you can always find an explanation of apocryphal writings because they are NEVER meant to be interpteted literally but Jesus was not speaking in apocryphal mode. he meant what he said and it was reported in two places so its very clear.

also jesus says no man knows when it will happen. so if its fulfilled then we can explain why its there in the bible. if however it hasnt happened yet then we know we cant tell when these things will happen (a number of verses attest to that) so why is it there. tiosay its there to show the power of god is a simple elegant explanation and then fits all the comments by Jesus

for what its worth,salvation isnt altered so i dont think it really matters that much in the BIG scheme of things which one you decide onand i think we all investigate this at some point. certainly so far everyone who contradicts jesus and the apostles and say its not happened yet and they know when have been totally wrong. they always shift and find a reason why they were wrong but the preterist havent needed to change their teaching in 2000 years and that to me is appealing .

Jordon

Im not saying anything about the "proper" interpretation of this area. What Im trying to do is show you some of the issues and other opinions out there…. If you are only aware of one interpretation of these things you really are limited in understanding why the issue is so controversial and why there is no agreement on this between each denomination and why its been argued back and forth for 2000 years by churches and laymen and scholars that spend their entire lives studying this. (Im not saying that to say dont look at this – my point is – keep an open mind on this because people who have studied this for many decades disagree)

Regarding your mention of the Nazi's I will refer to a rule of Debating. Never invoke Hitler and the Nazis because they can be used to prove anything. They are considered the lazy debaters solution to ALL issues. having said that – have a read of this http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007056

I have known Auschwitz survivors AND seen their tattoos. As an aside – this is why it can be a really bad idea to suggest writing numbers on people in hospitals – survivors and their friends and relatives can be EXTREMELY traumatised by such suggestions. Its also why any suggestion of a mark or chip would be fought seperately against.

Secondly, by assuming the mark is a literal mark – I would remind you of one of the first rules of interpreting apocryphal literature. NOTHING is literal. Just as the statue in Daniel is NOT a statue – but represents history and various empires – so the mark of the beast wont represent a physical mark but something else.

as this guys says here http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/walker-don_pp_01.html be very careful of jumping to conclusions

"A classic example of “jumping to conclusions” without having Biblical evidence to do so, is the assumption that the Beast of Revelation and the Antichrist are one and the same. Most books on Bible prophecy begin with this foundational assumption. In most instances, the terms are used interchangeably. My question is “Where is your Biblical evidence to support this conclusion?”. There is a “missing link” between the Antichrist and the Beast. What is the Scriptural basis to assume that they are the same person? The Bible describes them in distinctively different ways."

I what ever the correct interpretation is – MANY people make assumptions because thats easy. (OR as I say – the skip over bits that dont fit – such as Jesus telling us all these things will happen in the lives of the people he was speaking to. IF you cant fit that in – you have a huge whole in any theory – and you have to ask – if that WASNT important – why did Jesus carefully tell is and why did God put it into the bible multiple times ?

Anyway – I know its long – but anything useful and likely to be accurate in this area WILL be long. Anything short and simple is almost guaranteed to be skipping lots of important points and is probably wrong (unless they have considered those points and are deliberatly glossing over them – but thats still a danger sign)

Still – there were a number of facts about Rome that John's Audience will have clearly known. (and remember also they knew Daniel and they knew the image of the statue and the correlation to the various empires. This would have been very familiar imagery to them.

Rome has 7 Hills – and the beast has 7 heads. Rome had 10 provinces – and the beast has 10 horns with crowns

. Remember – these ARE used to mean EXACTLY that in Daniel

Lion Babylonian Empire c. 612BC-539BC

Bear Medo-Persian Empire c.539BC-334BC

Leopard Alexander the Great – Greek Empire divided into four Kingdoms (4 wings & 4 heads) in 323BC

Beast with 10 horns -Roman Empire (same Beast as Rev. chapter 13) conquered the Greek Seleucids in 190BC. Rome took Judah as a Roman province in 63BC and renamed it Judea(h).

So its a Very reasonable interpretation to say it means the same when John says it. If you want it to mean something else you have to ask WHY didnt John use a different image – rather than one his audience would have instantly interpreted as Rome ??? (remember they knew their scriptures as well as – or even better than we do)

Some scholars believe there is a double interpretation here and believe also that it refers to Rome and to Nero. The bible says the beast was given power over the saints and Nero was the first to persecute the christians so that is a perfect tie in with history.

Im always a bit wary of Numeralogical proof but there is some given here you might find interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#Neron_Caesar

Nron Qsr

The Greek version of the name (Nero) and title transliterates into Hebrew as נרון קסר, and yields a numerical value of 666:

Resh (ר) Samekh (ס) Qoph (ק) Nun (נ) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Nun (נ) Sum

200 60 100 50 6 200 50 666

What you MIGHT find interesting is that the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus which is the oldest known copy of the Book of says the number is 616 (and I believe some others also but Im not really sure which ones – the point is – both numbers are used in our original texts and the OLDEST and theoretically most accurate one uses 616 ) and look at this

Nro Qsr

The Latin version of the name (Nero) drops the second Nun (נ), so that it appears as Nro and transliterates into Hebrew as נרו קסר, yielding 616:

Resh (ר) Samekh (ס) Qoph (ק) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Nun (נ) Sum

200 60 100 6 200 50 616

and remember – if you believe that Revelations HASNT happened yet – you are saying you know more than the apostles and you have to explain why Jesus tried to make it so clear that all these things were to happen in their lifetimes (his audience I mean) ….. and dont forget – theres not only the verses that I have mentioned – there are a number all through the new testament that say the same things e,g, 1 Thessalonians 5:2 again says when it happens no one will know (Like a theif in the night) and there are others. God says this time and time again for a reason.

Futurist scholars know ALL The verses on this and dont argue it doesnt say this BTW – its too clear to dismiss. They argue the apostles were just wrong in their understanding (thats the ONLY argument you CAN make because its so clear from so many verses and also from other documents we have – that they really believed all these things would happen in their life time). However there is a danger in that argument – if they are wrong in that belief – why couldnt they be wrong in other beliefs. I think you go down an interesting slippery slope if you are a futurist. Still many respected scholars do. However its a point you need to be aware of. If you believe that revelations has not happened yet – you are saying clearly parts of the new testament are wrong. You then have to deal with that (people do it BTW by saying those bits are personal opinions and not "Gods Word" but to me that seems unnecessarily complicated AND leaves open the question WHO determines which bits are opinion (and fallible) and which bits arent)….

Theres also a possibility that BOTH are right – that there are multiple Correct interpretations. However IF you accept that all the prophecies are fulfilled in history – then what is your basis for thinking there is also a future interpretation as well ? How would you justify (in scripture) this point of view. Remember Many people pick and choose the bits they like. If you do that you can prove ANYTHING. Its really not a valid appraoch. You need to harmonise with all the bible or your on shakey ground. (thats what makes this area so complex !)