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Homosexuality is Unnatural?

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bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 18:58

We will have to agree to disagree then.


I’ll leave you with one more question, and this is the doosy:


1. Do you think that God is unchanging and has always been and thought the same way?


Think of your answer before reading the next question…


2. In Leviticus, God law says “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”


3. If God is unchanging, why would he think any differently about homosexuality today, as He did back then?


Bye 🙂



frogger
 
Joined in 2005
March 8, 2007, 20:21

bruce you have not proved anything to me… you have just reiterated the same verses i have heard a thousand and studied a thousand times.


Nothing you have said is new, alarming, or life changing… i do not agree with your stance. Neither do i agree with your interpretation of God or His word….


im happy to discuss other topics with you though…….


you hope to open us up, but in order to do this you must also be open…..



Craig_Maynard
 
Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 20:29

Animals also kill eachother and have multiple partners. Does this make it ok for us to commit murder and adultery just because it’s “natural”? No.


Animals became corrupt just like humans after sin entered the world. True nature only existed before sin, where all animals were perfect plant eaters. After sin entered the world God cursed the earth as we read in Genesis, hence nature as we know it today.


And about Adam and Steve. If it was God’s will for people to have the choice to be gay from the start then why was his first commandment to Adam and Eve to populate the earth? Sure that commandment doesn’t apply to us today but it doesn’t justify saying it’s part of God’s perfect nature. You are grasping at straws here.


Why thank you Bruce for slapping me into reality… hmmmm 1. you are not an animal lover therefore you have contravened the commandment by God that we have been placed in charge of animal and the earth of both we failed terribly on all counts.


Hmmm animal kills – why? For two things… to protect themselves and for food. Mankind just gets a gun and kill for pleasure! Bible does warn us that we should only kill for food… also mankind have the ability to push a button and wipe out 1 country! It has in the pass and will do so in the future… hmmmm where in the bible does it mention that its not ok to do mass murder… 6 million jews were killed off in the name of an idealistic movement by Hitler who was a Jewish man (his mum was Jewish and raped by a common man).


I often ask that since the bible was only available from 1500 onwards and accessible… before then how did they have the word of god? Hmmmm its only been around for 500 odd years. Actually that’s when we started having lots of persectutions of Gay men, and laws made to punish any same sex activity. Correct me if I am wrong on that subject.


King Henry VIII was the first English king to ask that a bible be placed in the hands of the common man. His motive was also likely to have been to cop a snook at the Pope in Rome, as a result of the fact that the Pope had refused to grant him a divorce. The bible chosen was The Great Bible, a work edited by the less-than-scholarly Miles Coverdale. Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale, and his Bible was the first to be an officially approved bible in English. Coverdale was no scholar, but had based much of his work on that of Tyndale who was. A flood of translations and revisions followed, the most notable being the Rogers bible appeared in 1537 and the Taverner’s Bible in 1539. http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm


The question arises – how do we know what we do. For me, I have this conviction that’s so strong that stood against time. I know that I have been redeemed, I know that I am Gay and can not be straight. I know that I am not preverse and I am a child of God. So how can I be an abomination to myself? When I know that God accepts me for who I am.


I only have to look at animals and look at their nuturing and see alot of them nuturing the same sex…. then I see some of God’s creation which are both male and female and reproduce itself. It really makes you wonder just what is going on… and marvel about the extent of God in this world and in this life. You really have to stop and wonder. Hmmmm


Bible is God’s breath – nefesh… ok but it was mankind who put the bible together out of spite to a Roman Catholic who abhor divorces and the bible backs it… so its ironic that the bible was created in revenge to the Catholic Church infact backfired and cause so many misery and persectution! Hmmm this is interesting.


Craig.



Craig_Maynard
 
Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 20:38

Why do you think God made it law for homosexuals to be put to death in the OT?


Bruce, I have been looking in my bible where God actually said go out and kill the homosexuals. huh, I haven’t found it. Can you give me the reference to that? 🙂


Thank you!


Once I have read what you are refering to I will compile my argument using the traditional way the Rabbi… because OT belongs to the Jews and so the Rabbi’s would argue scriptures… hopefully that will shed some light on this particular section.


Hold onto my promise to answer your question.


Craig.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 8, 2007, 23:40

Here is an interesting study about Old Testament culture


http://www.trinitymcc.com/worship/sermon_God_gays3.htm


It goes into holy codes and ordinances with references.


God doesnt change his mind??????? Hmmmmm!! First the Jews are told they cant eat shellfish and certain animals in the old covenant and next thing you know in the new covenant, Peter is shown that he can eat those things. God changed his mind. New covenant, based on the original promise to Abraham of righteousness by faith.


Paul even states that certain foods are only now unclean to those who hold it as such and the one who doesnt eat what he considers unclean by faith is sinning, because he isnt eating it by faith. To one it is sin to another it is not. Its their in black and white. shock

These unclean foods came under the same holiness codes as so many other things. Why did God change His mind? Maybe because God finished the Old Covenant with Jesus and started a new one. Jesus gave us two commands on which the others hang on. Jesus is God and I am sure He should know. He spoke the words of His Father. And those two commands he gave us embrace the ten. “a new command I give you” Jesus said. He fulfilled the others because we NEVER could and so now we have a new covenant based on better promises as Paul said.


Just sharing a site with you all, and a thought………(noooooo more debates lol wink ) am just sharing.


http://www.trinitymcc.com/worship/sermon_God_gays4.htm



Anthony Venn-Brown
 
Joined in 2005
March 9, 2007, 08:35

Hi Bruce…….so when is a homosexual sex act one of love and one of lust?


When a heterosexual married couple engage in anal sex is that okay?


what sexual acts between two women who live in a monogamous relationship are allowed.


I think these are all important questions if the church is going to single out a particular sex act………after they have realised that homosexuality is a sexual orientation and therefore in and of itself not a sin.


I’d be interested to hear your thoughts



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 10, 2007, 05:32

Hmmm animal kills – why? For two things… to protect themselves and for food.


You missed the point. I was comparing animals killing each other to people killing each other not animals. I used this example to show that just because something appears in nature doesn’t make it ok for us.


I only have to look at animals and look at their nuturing and see alot of them nuturing the same sex…. then I see some of God’s creation which are both male and female and reproduce itself.


I agree we can see a lot of God’s character in nature but you can’t apply it to everything you see. Personally, I wouldn’t say poisonous spiders and man eating sharks would be part of God’s character. Stuff like that only came about after sin entered the world, which is pretty obvious given that before sin all animals were plant eaters. A lot of animals these days have teeth built for eating meat not plants so there had to be a change somewhere. My belief is this occurred when God cursed the earth.


Bruce, I have been looking in my bible where God actually said go out and kill the homosexuals. huh, I haven’t found it. Can you give me the reference to that? Smile


I was referring to the law in Leviticus 20:13 (and I’m not suggesting we still have to obey this law) – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”” This refers to homosexual acts not thinking you are attracted to the same sex. Read further and I’ll explain this a bit more.


God doesnt change his mind??????? Hmmmmm!! First the Jews are told they cant eat shellfish and certain animals in the old covenant and next thing you know in the new covenant, Peter is shown that he can eat those things. God changed his mind. New covenant, based on the original promise to Abraham of righteousness by faith.


If you think about it, he really didn’t. It’s only us that change, not God. Wherever it appears that God changed his mind, He is only accommodating for us. His thoughts and plan never change because he is beyond time. Wherever God is shown as changing his mind are human attempts to explain His actions.


Hi Bruce…….so when is a homosexual sex act one of love and one of lust?


It depends what kind of love you’re talking about. The sexual kind always has to be lust because it’s outside of marriage. The Bible only defines marriage as being between a man and woman. This has been the case since Genesis. Genesis 2:24 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh”. I don’t see “united to his wife or husband” there.


When a heterosexual married couple engage in anal sex is that okay?


Yes, everything is OK within marriage. Hebrews 13:4 “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled”


what sexual acts between two women who live in a monogamous relationship are allowed.


I think allowed is the wrong word. God doesn’t force us to do anything, but I think any sexual act between two women is a sin.


after they have realised that homosexuality is a sexual orientation and therefore in and of itself not a sin.


Do you consider homosexual acts a sin? Without sexual acts or lust I really don’t see how it can be seen as homosexuality. I use the word lust because marriage is only between a man and a woman, and nowhere in the Bible does it indicate otherwise.


Most dictionaries will describe homosexuality (the noun) as someone who practices it. The adjective would not be considered a sin because there’s nothing active about it, only that there’s an attraction or a temptation. But to call yourself A homosexual (noun) would say that you practice it. If you just call yourself homosexual (the adjective, not A homosexual) then I can see why you would say that’s not a sin. I could think I’m a pianist because I like the piano but until I play it it doesn’t make me one. All it makes me is someone who likes pianos (an adjective).


homosexual

adjective

1. sexually attracted to members of your own sex


noun

1. someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex


As you can see, the adjective is not sinful because it’s not active but a temptation. I’m attracted to women but that doesn’t make me an adulterer. If it goes beyond temptation then that’s where it becomes active and a sin. This begs the question, why would you want to accept yourself as homosexual (adjective) if it’s sinful to become one (noun)? All it would do is open yourself up to temptation and a life of struggles.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 10, 2007, 09:50

Bruce, please if u are going to quote me then please quote everything i write at least on a topic and not half of it wink . Oh and by the way if something is no longer a certain way, then it is obvious it has changed.

I have added another scripture under the post i wrote in full here.


I know you are sincere in wanting to know why we believe the way we do and are concerned for our spiritual welfare and that is appreciated. ) Anthony is a great guy to speak with, if ever you want to. He doesnt bite Lol wink


Here is the passage you semi quoted in full


“God doesnt change his mind??????? Hmmmmm!! First the Jews are told they cant eat shellfish and certain animals in the old covenant and next thing you know in the new covenant, Peter is shown that he can eat those things. God changed his mind. New covenant, based on the original promise to Abraham of righteousness by faith.


Paul even states that certain foods are only now unclean to those who hold it as such and the one who doesnt eat what he considers unclean by faith is sinning, because he isnt eating it by faith. To one it is sin to another it is not. Its their in black and white.

These unclean foods came under the same holiness codes as so many other things. Why did God change His mind? Maybe because God finished the Old Covenant with Jesus and started a new one. Jesus gave us two commands on which the others hang on. Jesus is God and I am sure He should know. He spoke the words of His Father. And those two commands he gave us embrace the ten. “a new command I give you” Jesus said. He fulfilled the others because we NEVER could and so now we have a new covenant based on better promises as Paul said.”


Something had passed away and something new begun you cant explain this scripture below away Bruce, it is self explanatary, needs no interpretation my friend 8) (but I know You will try, so I agree to disagree with you ahead of time wink )


Hebrews 86-13

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah– 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


The word of God has spoken for itself. I also suggest to keep reading through to Hebrews 9 etc…it talks of Jesus death (testator) dying to end the old law. Since a death was neccessary to tie it up. Its all there.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 10, 2007, 12:51

Interesting to note and I quote am not stating this in a sexual manner or in a manner for debate, but it is interesting to note that Jesus is our bridegroom, we as the church are his Bride and His “bride’s” consist of MEN and WOMEN…….The marriage union is used as an extensive analogy of the union we have with Christ, but with Him it includes men also being brides. His intimacy is the same with a man as with a woman, we are ALL married to HIm. It is a pure spiritual, felt, intimacy, and again with no sex since as far as I know in heaven their isnt such but still an interesting thought. wink (of course on earth we have sex as an expression of love toward the one we are committed to wink )


I know a lot of guys uncomfortable thinking of themselves as Jesus’ brides and how intimate Jesus can be BUT thats the english culture for you!! In europe men hugging and kissing is not unusual etc……… John laid on Jesus breast(chest), would a guy in church do that now? LOL prob. not!!! Again I am not equating that to a homosexual expression. Im just putting some thoughts out there.



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 10, 2007, 14:46

I was responding to your whole post, and still have the same response.


God didn’t change. I understand what you’re saying about meat, but it was us and food that changed. God cannot change because he is constant and beyond time. We changed because we were now able to eat meat. Meat changed because it was now clean. Saying God changed is just a way of humanising it so we can relate to the scripture better, but really isn’t entirely correct. God did not change.


What I am really interested to know is a concise point by point reason as to why homosexuality is not a sin, and what parts of it you do and don’t consider sin. I brought a few of those issues up in my previous post and would like someone to clear it up because your beliefs really aren’t clear and could be misleading for some people.


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