G’day guys!

Quite a discussion you’re having here. I’ve been watching it with some interest.

For starters Bruce, I can see where you are coming from in regards to the natural way in which animals conduct themselves. I personally don’t think that if we see animals doing something it gives us liberties to do it ourselves – that’s ridiculous! I don’t think the fact that there are homosexual animals gives gay Christians a leg to stand on. In saying that, I can see that was posted in order to combat the whole ‘homosexuality is unnatural’ thing. But I don’t think it’s a strong argument in justifying it for us as kids of God. So we have something in common.

Even though, in our minds, this is a particularly weak argument doesn’t mean that everything else that gay Christians believe is wrong. We all interpret the bible differently and (if you would indulge me by being open to this possibility for just a moment) realisticly there are a seemingly endless number of ways in which it can be interpreted to suit ones own point of view – and if we’re being honest with ourselves, we’re all guilty of that at some point or other.

Keeping that in mind, I wanted to question your interpretation of God being unchangable. Did God describle himself as eternal? Yes. Is God described as being the same yesterday, today and forever? Yes. Does that mean he’s unchangeable? Not according to the bible. In Exodus 3:14 God describes himself as “I am”. This seems to relate to a confidence in his nature. God is completely comfortable with who he is right at this moment. God is a God of the present and if he were to change his mind right now he could. Changing your mind does not change your nature. I’ve changed my views about certain issues in the past, but it has not changed who I am, the core of what makes me me. Does God change his mind? YES! If you say otherwse you obviously haven’t read the bible. That’s basically what the book of Isaiah consists of. “I’m gonna wipe them out” “No, God, please don’t.” “Okay, I won’t, but I’m not happy!” Does he change his mind? Yes. Does he change his nature? No. With or without the gay argument, you have to recognise that one. And besides, in Acts 10:15 he actually said to Peter, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” The term ‘made clean’ incinuates an action, a change. To make something clean involves changing what you think about it.

That leads on to what he’d made clean. The foods he was referring to were a part of the holiness or purity code referred to in Leviticus (the same code that refers to unatural sex with a man as an abomination) which makes you wonder if he was just referring to food.

I agree with you in the sense that I do believe that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law (he said that himself), but he also came to teach us how to respond to God. And although Jesus knew the scriptures inside out, he was more than willing to dispose of niggly little laws in order to do what God told him directly. I mean, his main target of disgust were the men who took each letter of the law as rock hard without applying love to it! If anything, Jesus taught us to have a healthy respect for the law but aim for a passionate and personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. I’m not saying we disregard the bible, but I am saying that God also equipped us not only with common sense, but a spirit that is equipped to commmunicate withh him personally and not just through the letter of the law.

I have more theories, but I’m completely stuffed. It’s incredibly hot and humid here in Brisbane and I think sleep is the only way I can deal with it.

God bless you all heaps. Hope this discussion is fruitful.

Dash

Here lies the problem. How did you come to the conclusion that those are sinful? Was it the OT laws that identified them to you as sin or your own personal opinion? Heterosexual relationships can be abusive as well but that doesn’t make the relationship itself sinful. The whole purpose of the law is to identify to us what sin is. This is covered in Romans 7.

AVB, answer the above questions and I’ll leave you all alone. I’m genuinely interested in your response and sure many others could be as well.

As I’ve said, if you want your views to be accepted then you have to explain it better. You are basically claiming that the majority of Christians have interpreted the Bible incorrectly, so you have to put in a bit more effort than just linking to a few external web sites.

“Teen Mania” vs 2nd Gayest City in the world

http//www.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/us/09battlecry.html?ex=1174107600&en=e04dffb9a7d83669&ei=5070&emc=eta1

“Battle cry” indeed.

Isn’t it interesting how homophobes are almost always Xenophobes & racists also? For instance, the Good Reverend Fred

http//www.smh.com.au/news/state-election-2007/damien-murphys-the-stump/2007/03/11/1173548023986.html

I had an experience yesterday also which i would like to relay

I was in Manly after a long bushwalk with a friend & we bumped into a woman about my age & had a chat, the conversation point being her stick-weilding Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Now, i don’t look affeminate or camp in any way, & the woman was commenting that she was impressed the dog came to us for a pat. “He dosen’t like many people you see, he especially dosen’t like poofs”

Thinking that i had misheard what she had said, i asked her to repeat herself “poofs” she repeated twice adding that she had been at a park the previous day & the dog completely ignored a soccer player with a light blue ball. She then informed us for good measure that the dog did not like Arabs, either.

My friend, who is as straight as they come motioned to me “come on mate, let’s go” & the woman looked confused as to why we wanted to end the conversation so soon. She was clearly clueless as to the fact that she had been talking directly to a gay man (my friend is Jewish, perhaps she wanted to take a shot there, too).

As i walked away, as you do, i went over in my head what i should have said to her, this human dumpling with a broad westie accent, something like “Actually madam, point of fact, i think it may be you trying to project your prejudices through your dog unsuccessfully because…your dog has just happliy run straight up to a gay man” or something similar.

My mate & i laughed about it at the time, but afterwards it started to knaw at me at make me feel really flat because the experience had bounced me right back to being a closeted teenager hearing responses like that through the 80’s & early 90’s & realising how every time i’d heard something like that it had halted or delayed any self-realisation or progress. How ignorant statements like that kept me in the closet for so long.

Even though i have ben out 10 years & live in the gayest city in the world, i have to tell you…….it still aches.

Magsdee, yes everything that is listed in Leviticus as sin is still sin unless Jesus said otherwise.

The marriage bed is undefiled. However, there are still some things that is still sin, such as sex during menstruation. I have no problem saying that’s sinful. I admit there’s some parts of Leviticus that are very hard to follow and I’m sure I’ve broken many of them, but at least I don’t try to say they are no longer sin. It’s all sin, unless Jesus said otherwise.