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Homosexuality is Unnatural?

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Craig_Maynard
 
Joined in 2007
March 11, 2007, 23:26

I was starting to wonder should I try and explain things from our perspective – thank you Forgger and Anthony for highlighting that… wow… saved me time too… I was about to look at it from a hebrew perspective and delve into the understanding of Rabbi’s about this… and to find out that this guy could be wasting my time as he asspears genuine. If he is just posting these and baiting our time and energy. Sigh… thought he was genuine eh! Smile and sigh.


Some people can’t appreciate that we know who we are in Christ even if we have an orientation to juggle with it… Anthony I want you to personally know that you have never mislead anyone and that your experiences are real and genuine. I would gladly defend you in public. I have worked with you and gotten to know you professionally and gotten to know you on the other side of your professional life. You have truly given me blessings just by who you are and your passionate support for those who are gay with an orientation. 😀


Have a great day.


Craig.



Dash
 
Joined in 2006
March 11, 2007, 23:55

G’day guys!


Quite a discussion you’re having here. I’ve been watching it with some interest.


For starters Bruce, I can see where you are coming from in regards to the natural way in which animals conduct themselves. I personally don’t think that if we see animals doing something it gives us liberties to do it ourselves – that’s ridiculous! I don’t think the fact that there are homosexual animals gives gay Christians a leg to stand on. In saying that, I can see that was posted in order to combat the whole ‘homosexuality is unnatural’ thing. But I don’t think it’s a strong argument in justifying it for us as kids of God. So we have something in common.


Even though, in our minds, this is a particularly weak argument doesn’t mean that everything else that gay Christians believe is wrong. We all interpret the bible differently and (if you would indulge me by being open to this possibility for just a moment) realisticly there are a seemingly endless number of ways in which it can be interpreted to suit ones own point of view – and if we’re being honest with ourselves, we’re all guilty of that at some point or other.


Keeping that in mind, I wanted to question your interpretation of God being unchangable. Did God describle himself as eternal? Yes. Is God described as being the same yesterday, today and forever? Yes. Does that mean he’s unchangeable? Not according to the bible. In Exodus 3:14 God describes himself as “I am”. This seems to relate to a confidence in his nature. God is completely comfortable with who he is right at this moment. God is a God of the present and if he were to change his mind right now he could. Changing your mind does not change your nature. I’ve changed my views about certain issues in the past, but it has not changed who I am, the core of what makes me me. Does God change his mind? YES! If you say otherwse you obviously haven’t read the bible. That’s basically what the book of Isaiah consists of. “I’m gonna wipe them out” “No, God, please don’t.” “Okay, I won’t, but I’m not happy!” Does he change his mind? Yes. Does he change his nature? No. With or without the gay argument, you have to recognise that one. And besides, in Acts 10:15 he actually said to Peter, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean” The term ‘made clean’ incinuates an action, a change. To make something clean involves changing what you think about it.


That leads on to what he’d made clean. The foods he was referring to were a part of the holiness or purity code referred to in Leviticus (the same code that refers to unatural sex with a man as an abomination) which makes you wonder if he was just referring to food.


I agree with you in the sense that I do believe that Jesus didn’t come to abolish the law (he said that himself), but he also came to teach us how to respond to God. And although Jesus knew the scriptures inside out, he was more than willing to dispose of niggly little laws in order to do what God told him directly. I mean, his main target of disgust were the men who took each letter of the law as rock hard without applying love to it! If anything, Jesus taught us to have a healthy respect for the law but aim for a passionate and personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit. I’m not saying we disregard the bible, but I am saying that God also equipped us not only with common sense, but a spirit that is equipped to commmunicate withh him personally and not just through the letter of the law.


I have more theories, but I’m completely stuffed. It’s incredibly hot and humid here in Brisbane and I think sleep is the only way I can deal with it.


God bless you all heaps. Hope this discussion is fruitful.


Dash



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 00:47

I dont mind devoting time helping some young christian gay boy or lesbian come to understand that God loves them as they are……but to spend my precious hours arguing with a heterosexual person who is already convinced we are sick sinful people is not the way i plan to use this precious thing God gave me called life.


if this is what you do in your spare time Bruce and are so devoted to getting on forums and arguing, then I think you seriously need to get some professional help…..you have a problem. if on the other hand, it is that you have too much time on your hands…..I suggest you get out there in the community Jesus died for and feed the homeless. Do something useful that will serve others and serve God.


Take it easy, I never said you were sick and sinful. You probably assume I’m one of those judgmental Christians but it’s so far from the truth. We are all sinful. God loves homosexuals just as much as anyone else and I try to follow His example. I never want to, or have any right to tell you how to live or what to do, the only problem I have is people teaching false doctrine. It’s classic for people with false doctrine to turn it around on the person questioning it. I don’t have a problem at all. If you want to present alternative interpretation of the Bible then you have to be open to scrutiny. So far you’re doing poorly.


It’s funny how you avoided my last few questions. I think the cracks are starting to appear in your doctrine.


Its quite offensive actually to liken beastiality and incest with sexual orientation.


By the way, I wasn’t likening them at all. I was applying your definition of sin to other things that are considered sin by most Christians. Just out of curiosity, do you also find it offensive that incest, beastiality and homosexuality are all in the same category in Leviticus?



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 00:56

Here lies the problem. How did you come to the conclusion that those are sinful? Was it the OT laws that identified them to you as sin or your own personal opinion? Heterosexual relationships can be abusive as well but that doesn’t make the relationship itself sinful. The whole purpose of the law is to identify to us what sin is. This is covered in Romans 7.


AVB, answer the above questions and I’ll leave you all alone. I’m genuinely interested in your response and sure many others could be as well.


As I’ve said, if you want your views to be accepted then you have to explain it better. You are basically claiming that the majority of Christians have interpreted the Bible incorrectly, so you have to put in a bit more effort than just linking to a few external web sites.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 01:22

Dash that is a great response in examples to God having changed his mind.!!! And a great explain about His nature being unchanging…..Ive tried to use scripture but to no avail…..Yes the animal thing I also added as a post and I know is weak but it was just to show that its not a freak of nature to be same sexual. The New testament talks about the old code being nailed its there, why cant some people see that? Anyhow, I really like what you wrote. D Wish I could order my thinking better like that lol.



Reve
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 09:37

“Teen Mania” vs 2nd Gayest City in the world


http//www.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/us/09battlecry.html?ex=1174107600&en=e04dffb9a7d83669&ei=5070&emc=eta1


“Battle cry” indeed.



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 10:13

Sorry dash, but you just shot yourself in the foot. Yes God’s nature is unchanging, and it does APPEAR that God changes his mind. However, these changes are only to account for us, not himself. As you said, God’s nature is unchanging. Genesis describes a lot of God’s nature and things that he detests. God saying homosexuality is an abomination or detestable is saying something about the nature of God, that at that point in time he hates it. Saying it’s not is like saying God will hate something one day but love it the next. God doesn’t change like that. It’s not like God saying “do not eat meat” or any of the other “changes” he made to account for us.


I know you will try to spin it differently, so I’ll just accept that you don’t want to agree with me.


I won’t discuss that any further, I’m just waiting for a response from AVB then I’ll leave.



Reve
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 10:37

Isn’t it interesting how homophobes are almost always Xenophobes & racists also? For instance, the Good Reverend Fred


http//www.smh.com.au/news/state-election-2007/damien-murphys-the-stump/2007/03/11/1173548023986.html


I had an experience yesterday also which i would like to relay


I was in Manly after a long bushwalk with a friend & we bumped into a woman about my age & had a chat, the conversation point being her stick-weilding Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Now, i don’t look affeminate or camp in any way, & the woman was commenting that she was impressed the dog came to us for a pat. “He dosen’t like many people you see, he especially dosen’t like poofs”


Thinking that i had misheard what she had said, i asked her to repeat herself “poofs” she repeated twice adding that she had been at a park the previous day & the dog completely ignored a soccer player with a light blue ball. She then informed us for good measure that the dog did not like Arabs, either.


My friend, who is as straight as they come motioned to me “come on mate, let’s go” & the woman looked confused as to why we wanted to end the conversation so soon. She was clearly clueless as to the fact that she had been talking directly to a gay man (my friend is Jewish, perhaps she wanted to take a shot there, too).


As i walked away, as you do, i went over in my head what i should have said to her, this human dumpling with a broad westie accent, something like “Actually madam, point of fact, i think it may be you trying to project your prejudices through your dog unsuccessfully because…your dog has just happliy run straight up to a gay man” or something similar.


My mate & i laughed about it at the time, but afterwards it started to knaw at me at make me feel really flat because the experience had bounced me right back to being a closeted teenager hearing responses like that through the 80’s & early 90’s & realising how every time i’d heard something like that it had halted or delayed any self-realisation or progress. How ignorant statements like that kept me in the closet for so long.


Even though i have ben out 10 years & live in the gayest city in the world, i have to tell you…….it still aches.



magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
March 12, 2007, 11:23

Bruce I am sorry to say this but you shoot down everything that is said with YOUR opinion.


The facts about God having changed is there, His own character stays the same but what is His Character???????? Do you know???? Tell me about Him as God in personality??????? No one knows him completely, if we did he wouldnt be God!!! Even his anger could be swayed by Abraham regarding lot and sodom and gomorrah but the town was destroyed because their wasnt 10 good people in their. Ezekial tells u the sin of Sodom and Gom. and it wasnt anal sex. I wonder if you even read the scriptures we give you, so I wont even bother adding that one. So what does that show, that God is willing to change his mind out of mercy toward us and now with Jesus its even better.

You seem obsessed with Homosexual sex, what about the heterosexual sex acts that God said that he detests in leviticus or sees as unclean????? do u know them???? or did u focus on the homosexual ones only???????? (did u know that abomination is actually translated as “ceremonially unclean” according to the strongs bible dictionary) but of course you wont look it up.

So Bruce, which heterosexual sex acts does God hate?????? Since you are such a stickler in Leviticus and keep bringing it up lets hear it and lets see what you find.



bruce
 
Joined in 2007
March 12, 2007, 11:43

Magsdee, yes everything that is listed in Leviticus as sin is still sin unless Jesus said otherwise.


The marriage bed is undefiled. However, there are still some things that is still sin, such as sex during menstruation. I have no problem saying that’s sinful. I admit there’s some parts of Leviticus that are very hard to follow and I’m sure I’ve broken many of them, but at least I don’t try to say they are no longer sin. It’s all sin, unless Jesus said otherwise.


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