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Is there a difference between who you are and what you do?

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Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
November 24, 2007, 17:49

I could not possibly put a price on your thoughts Sparrow, they are worth more than any of us can imagine I am sure.


It is a profound complextity of human nature as God created it, that we are both made in His image and made for the purpose of worshiping him yet we are all unigue, all so amazingly different. We all have different experiences and circumstances that dictate who we think we are and how we are percieved by others. But fundamentaly as Christians God loves us all equally and we all share in the gifts of heaven with equal abundance. If our purpose is to serve God through our individual experiences then those experiences do constitute some part of our Christian identity (aka God’s plan for our lives). Maybe we as Christians have a communal identity, God’s creation, God’s servants but we also have a personal identity, a personal path which makes us unique and is fundamentally carried out through our everyday experiences. Ah only questions and random ponderings at this stage, philiosophy is a dangerous thing.


Anthony: lol well I do like to talk 😆 You know I joined F2b with the express desire to get the ‘pro-gay picture’ so I could claim to ‘know’ what I was talking about when discussing homosexuality and Christianity and truth be told I still have no idea what the ‘pro-gay picture’ looks like! F2b has taught me next to nothing about the pro-gay stance, it has however taught me about a million more important things on the topics of love, acceptance, God, humanity, truth and how to do this thing we call life. Perhaps the greatest realisation is that these things in fact are more important than the root meaning of the term ‘natural’ in Romans 1. It pains me to say it 😉 but some things can’t be learned from books, they must be learned by living F2b helped me realise that.

Dove Snuggler
 
Joined in 2007
November 25, 2007, 23:15

Hi Sandy


Your challenge is a bit like the mathematical equation that only Will (Matt Damon) could solve in Good Will Hunting. How I love that movie because it highlights both the potential and the dilemma of human transformation.


My initial answer is yes and no. Yes, who you are is NOT what you do because we all do jerky things that spring out of our brain drain, not our being. No, because sexual preference IS an intricate part of my being as other contributors have said. I frankly dislike the term ‘sexual preference’ because I never preferred this way until I finally realised ‘who I am is ok’. ‘Sexual orientation’ is the thing that has been part of me since I kept begging my mother at the age of four to let me visit Bradley’s house. My attraction was far more than his imported toy sit-in car.


Now I feel a bit like a contestant on ‘Are You Smarter than a Fifth-Grader?’ Will I need to look down the barrel of a camera and totally humiliate myself? After all I have not studied philosophy.


Using a little psychology I would say that who we are is likely to produce certain behaviours … learned behaviours, ways of acting, thinking and feeling that we know deep down reflects who we are. Sometimes we act in different ways when things don’t go according to plan or when we are trying to hide our true identity. (eg. pretending we are not gay). But when I lose it and embarrass myself in public I know it is not me but underlying trauma events that haunt me. Ok, so that may be part of my fabric but it is not a true reflection of the dove snuggler.


Also yes, you can accept a homosexual relationship without approving of it. When I took my former boyfriend to visit my sister a few months ago, we accepted that we needed to sleep in different bedrooms. However, I let my sister know we normally slept together. My sister has been incredibly accepting of me as a gay man despite initially wanting to change me. She is a Christian psychologist that counsels sexual abuse victims and she probably still believes in the ex-gay movement. I told her that after many attempts at therapy I was comfortable now with who I am and I have the right to accept myself as well as the right to decline further therapy. I sincerely consider ex-gays are either living in denial or in a mindless monastic covenant with gay celibacy.


If being gay was just something I did, I would still be trying to change myself. And I’ve had far too much of that!


As for f2b’s failure to address the ‘pro-gay picture’ you seek, I am sure this can also be achieved by asking pertinent questions. I’m too new on the block to know if that has also failed you. I don’t know where you are studying but at Macquarie uni there are hundreds of texts on the pro-gay picture. From a Christian perspective, one of the most renouned is John Boswell’s ‘Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality’. I hope this helps.


Cheers. Kit

Sandy
 
Joined in 2007
November 26, 2007, 00:22

Dear Dove Snuggler,


What a well thought out responce!


IS an intricate part of my being as other contributors have said. I frankly dislike the term ‘sexual preference’ because I never preferred this way until I finally realised ‘who I am is ok’.


Well I supose I am at the stage where I am still questioning “is it an intricate part of my being?” I like the thing on preferance though. When I first came to the belief that my sexuality (which I did belive to be intrinsic) and my new found Christian beliefs were in conflict I refused to state “I am gay” because it seemed so fatalistic. To say “I am” something implies that it is not changable. I prefered to say “struggling with homosexuality”, its a small inference but the meaning behind it made a big difference to the way I constructed my idenity. I went from “I am a homosexual” to “I am experiencing homosexuality”.


Since then I have mellowed 😆 On forums like this I will frequently say that I am gay, mostly because that is not the point of my post and my posts are usually long winded enough without “I am experiencing homosexuality” everywhere “gay” would suffice. But in my head the concept is still there. Does this mean I believe sexualiy to be changable? Who knows, and more importantly who cares? God is my centre not heterosexuality and if God deems it I will change if not… thats cool with me too. The point is not heterosexuality, the point is a relationship with God and you can have that gay or straight.


Whats “Are you smarter than a fifth grader?” I am so out of the loop on Aussie tv.


I sincerely consider ex-gays are either living in denial or in a mindless monastic covenant with gay celibacy.


Um ouch! 😆


I disagree that gay celibacy is mindless though yes it does hold monastic allusions at times… hardly a bad thing. People are often celibate for all kinds of reasons and still live happy full lives. Sex is hardly the end all be all of existance and neither is a relationship. If our purpose in life is to glorify God as Christians then that becomes the end all be all of our existance, worth a few lonely nights in my opinion.


, I am sure this can also be achieved by asking pertinent questions


Did you hear that Anthony? 😆 Maybe I just havn’t asked enough questions!! Why didn’t I think of that!


Sorry I don’t mean to tease dove snuggler 😆 its just I have a bit of a reputation for asking pertinent questions. I have read quite a number of books includng Boswell’s. I guess I joined F2b under the impression that there must be something else convincing ‘these people’ because the theology sounded so flakey to me. I think there IS something else that convinces people or at least adds to the theology if you take a look in the strories section you will notice that theology usually comes second or thrid on the list of contributing factors. It’s those mysterious ‘other’ concepts that still allude me. If I could get them from a book, I would be an expert by now 😉

magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 26, 2007, 22:57

Man these posts are just awesome D Its like reading a living book, well you know what I mean. A book in motion? shock help??? Its all so rich, luckily Im not so blonde as to having underlined whats written here and left pencil marks and parenthesis on my monitor lol

magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 26, 2007, 23:04

I still have no idea what the ‘pro-gay picture’ looks like! F2b has taught me next to nothing about the pro-gay stance, it has however taught me about a million more important things on the topics of love, acceptance, God, humanity, truth and how to do this thing we call life. Perhaps the greatest realisation is that these things in fact are more important than the root meaning of the term ‘natural’ in Romans 1. It pains me to say it but some things can’t be learned from books, they must be learned by living F2b helped me realise that.


I finally got it! 😉


Yes, this just makes my heart swell Sandy, Ive learnt heaps from here and still majorly learning.

Myfanwe
 
Joined in 2007
November 26, 2007, 23:58

One thing I have learned in all of my debates about the Bible and Homosexuality, is that the Bible can be made to say just about anything one wants it to say, and yet, the Spirit says only the truth.


That sounds really simple and easy to get, but then you find out that what the Spirit says is truth for one person, might actually be different to what is true for another. This is a complexity in God that I have never managed to fathom and so I have just come to accept.


When people tell me that there cannot be two truths, I have no answer. When people tell me “We can’t both be right.” I have no answer either.


I can only hold up my two empty hands and say that in a human economy, we can’t both be right, but maybe in God’s economy we can?

We want things to be concrete, graspable, easy to understand and live with, whereas I think that much of Scripture, and all of God, is abstract and difficult to understand.


There is an illustration in the Gospel of John of how one thing can be true/applicable to one person and not to another:


Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me.”

Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”

Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

John 20:18-22


Here, Jesus has clearly given one instruction to Peter, and indicates that another instruction may apply to John. And Jesus reminds Peter that His instructions to John are not Peter’s concern. Peter’s only concern is to “Follow me.”


If this is too deep and makes no sense, I blame it on an excess of chocolate and insufficient sleep. 😆


Just putting it out there.


I am reminded of the words of Shakespeare’s Hamlet: “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”


Our knowledge of God and his will is limited and tempered by our human minds and we cannot begin to fathom his thoughts. Maybe, in God’s ‘philosophy’ two different and seemingly opposing views can in fact be right. I think God is big enough to be able to do that, and big enough, certainly to treat each person as an individual with an individual life path, plan, and mission.


Blessings,

magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 01:01

That is very deep indeed Magz shock but I like it. The Bible says that God is multi faceted(paraphrase) and we only know in part, so what part do we know as opposed to the part we dont know???? Hmmm I often wonder shock


I guess you can relate the two truths idea to say like when you get two people debating, one presents the truth in one way with back up and the other presents the truth with back up in another way, they are both presenting the truth and yet they are both different presentations of that truth. It would seem to me to be that one is presenting from there own understanding of what that truth maybe with backup and the other as well and both are convinced that how they understood that truth is correct.

Then they both get a following, (here we go roll ) one has more of a following than the other and so people think that truth must be the right one. (gees thats going right in roll lol )


I too think God is big enough to meet each person presenting the truth where they are at in being able to understand that truth as they believe it at the time, sometimes revelation comes other times it remains a mystery or the person just stays with the same idea, since there is nothing convincing enough to challenge the thought. I look at Sandy as an example here (sorry Sandy wink ) she was convinced that experience doesnt play a part in much fact regarding truth and interpretation (or something such?), yet she is seeing how life experience, age can make a difference, yet God meets us at these places, where we are at and loves us all the same. I guess he just watches what we do with what we know, is it being used for good in love or evil. (Just my thoughts with Maggie B’s, my excuse??? same as Magz lol chocolate and its late)

Myfanwe
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 01:04

hehe I have made this into a thread of its own, as I think it should get some good discussion going.


Oy vey! It is the Jew in me, I tell ya! Can’t leave it alone.


😆


Blessings,

magsdee
Disabled
Joined in 2006
November 27, 2007, 01:07

Cool another Jew, Craigs Jewish, part of my family are Jewish too…so cool D Amazing stories.

Myfanwe
 
Joined in 2007
November 27, 2007, 01:10

Cool another Jew, Craigs Jewish, part of my family are Jewish too…so cool 😀 Amazing stories.


I am only 1/8th Jewish. It is just enough to make me annoying. 😆


Blessings,
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