ow! one more bible shaped bruise to add to my collection. In one of the last places I would expect to cop one. 😆

I didn’t say anything that meant we have a license to sin.

I was quoting Wesley anyway, so maybe you should toss a bible at him too? 😉

I should have waited until I had thought all that I’ve read recently about his theology through before making a clumsy attempt to talk about it here, obviously.

Sandy, you and I don’t see eye to eye on anything much, do we?

I prefer the spirit of the law to the letter of the law (must be a methodist somewhere in here, seeing I grew up one) 😆

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Cor 3:6

Blessings,

Sorry! 😆 I didn’t mean to throw the bible at you! Belive it or not its something i get accused of alot too, sinning unrepentantly because I live under grace 🙄 utter crap but anyway…

I don’t think either of us means that grace is given so that we needn’t live morally or responsibly. Despite the fact I am married (and I say married regardless of the legal definition) to a woman, I am actually very moral and very straight laced about what is permissible to me to do. I am in one longterm, committed as seriously as a marriage, relationship with one woman and no one else even catches my eye these days, and the (highly unlikely) minute someone did, I would run to confess it to her! 😆

I can’t tell a white lie without my conscience convicting me. 😕

I am miserable if I feel I have said or done something wrong, until I make it right. *shrugs* but all of that seems like nothing to some people (not including you in this) because I am living a ‘gay lifestyle.’ What exactly is meant, when people say that? I don’t take part in any gay scene. I am a very boring stop-at-home person I watch TV, surf the internet, and record a podcast…is that a gay lifestyle? 😉

We Don’t seem to agree on alot, but thats ok, I still like you and I think that we are able to have an open and respectful dialouge.

I try to keep it respectful. Thank heavens that we can preview, edit, and even delete posts before we commit them, though, so I can cool off before I post, sometimes. 😳 😆

I supose that the bible must hold different meaning for you if you don’t view it as the word of God, but I do and I take seriously that bit where it says we ought to use the use the word to help, encourage and rebuke one another (I take it so seriously in fact that I couldn’t tell you were in the bible it is 😆 ).

I think I said somewhere on the forum, that I don’t see the Bible as the final authority, and that I see it contains truth, but that it is not in and of itself all, literally true. This is where I get into trouble with people thinking that I discount the Bible and that it must have different, or no meaning to me. That’s not the case. I do believe that the bible is useful for teaching, exhortation, encouragement and reproof (I don’t know where that comes from either) I just don’t think that it is to be used as a weapon, or seen as the final and ultimate authority.

Wesley (oh no, not him again!) Was of the opinion that the Bible should be applied through the filter of grace. That’s what I attempt to do.

The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL…. It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it.

When seen in this way, it doesn’t matter what we do. We can’t make ourselves any more, nor any less worthy of God’s forgiveness or his grace, because his grace is before all and above all. That’s what I clumsily attempted to say in my earlier post.

It’s not to say we shouldn’t attempt to live a good and Godly life, however, but that we must also remain mindful that it matters less what we do and more what we believe. (I’m gonna get in trouble here again I suppose)

I think we both use biblical concepts but tend to mean different things by them. So faith, repentance, holiness, servanthood etc we have different takes on the same concepts. Makes for interesting forum discussion at any rate.

I think we mean the same things, but say them in different ways, and maybe I have a more laid back approach. It comes from being old. 😉

Maybe one day we will find something to agree on, what are your thoughts on chocolate icecream? 😆

Actually, I prefer cookies and cream. 😆 😉

Blessings,

Ahem.

We seem to be in one of those odd situations where the two of you are expressing disagreement when actually, from where I’m standing, both of you are saying things that seem entirely consistent (and consistent with my own views).

All that is involved here is a difference in emphasis. What you do doesn’t matter to the fundamental question of salvation, because it comes through grace. But what you do does matter in the sense that the appropriate response to salvation is to behave in the way God desires. Both things are true.

hehe that’s the point I have been trying to make. Sandy and I are saying the same thing, just from a differing angle, so to speak.

The real dividing of the ways comes for Sandy and I though, when we discuss whether living in a same-sex relationship is sin. I believe it is not, while Sandy believes that it is. Not sure we will ever reconcile that one. 🙂

Blessings,

I feel assured that my salvation is secure.

I can’t speak for anyone else. 🙂

Im sorry and actually I am not sorry to say this but salvation IS the point……..why did Jesus come? why did he suffer? why did he go to the cross??????????? The Father wanted us to be able to get to heaven because we were completely incompetant in following the law in any shape manner or form, Jesus died so that the letter would be done away with, it was the letter that put Jesus on the cross, Jesus fulfilled the letter ( the letter kills) BUT our inability to keep the letter kept him nailed for 9hrs on our behalf.

Without Jesus there would be no spirit as we know it, no rejuvenation of the spirit of man so no new birth and so us left with the fallen spirit, the letter was all flesh (the letter kills), your spirit man did not change, Jesus enabled that to change so that your spirit became perfect, acceptable before God (spirit gives life) but your flesh is still sinful, its written by Paul somewhere that all sin has been condemned to the flesh, (the reasom for cruxifiction) the reason we dont live out of our flesh completely but our new spirit man keeping our flesh in tow or guiding it, what we could call conscience, but that takes time to hear it, hence GRACE andddddddd we ALL stuff up incredibly and will for the rest of our earthly lives in some shape or form but do we live out of our stuff ups? NO…..we move along as Jesus said, dust off your feet and get up and keep going, he never said “now beat yourself up for a month or the rest of your life and then maybe that will be penance enough, he said keep going, apologise and move along thankyou 😉 ….thing is when you are with the spirit, allowing the spirit man to grow, there are some things you just dont want to do anymore, and I think the misunderstanding is from conservatives sometimes is as orfeo said, we may express differently but are saying the same thing and that in no way are we saying do whatever you want without thought to the next person, that goes against what Jesus said “two greatest commands are these” and we know what im talking about 😉 this isnt church so arent going to be able to give a full sermon of what we mean.

I have no conviction in me that what i do is wrong being with a woman, anyhow didnt Jesus say that it was the spirit that convicts the world of being in the wrong???? not the law the spirit in the new convenant…….i have no such witness in my spirit that i am in the wrong and so i live by faith in that, if someone else doesnt believe they can live as a same sex person then fine, they should live as they have conviction and faith to live, didnt Jesus say keep your eyes of everyone else and why one has this has this and the other that and just keep your eyes on me , or more precisely ” YOU follow ME”. Here I know someone can say “well then a paedophile has conviction they can do what they do cause they have conviction that its right? ” who in there right mind or logic can equate that to same sex orientation, paedophilia is abuse of a minor, im lesbian, im not abusing another human being against there will or have coersed them into something they dont want to do.

I agree with asking questions, its always a good thing, but lets not get in the danger of questioning everything away so much that we end up with nothing in the end, its easier to question than to allow something to sit for a while and process in your mind or heart, there is nothing that you couldnt question or strip to pieces in the bible, sure its good to check things out for yourself and weigh up someone else’s opinion or belief but thats the thing, doesnt the fact that there are sooooooo many denominations prove that we will never all agree completely, so why try and argue to try and prove a point. Wheres the faith then without proof? I believe in God as much as any heterosexual person and have a set of standards I follow as a human being based on the two commands of Jesus, God is very much alive in my thinking, I make mistakes and even the same ones over and over again, if not for GRACE and Gods plan of Salvation through Jesus, Id be dead, stoned to death, left outside the camp you name it. Yes Salvation IS everything because it encorporates more than ” oh i better believe then or else” what is that anyway, thats not from the heart a heart felt conviction, thats works, and yet there is even GRACE for the one who thinks that way. Okkkkkkk enough from me 😆 😳 😆