Craig I agree in that it is good to read books that bring a particular view across whether that be supportive or not in a manner not demeaning to ones character as a human being.

Their are many books as u said that make gays/lesbians look like perverts and sick, out to attack and convert the unsuspecting and carry a demonic spirit………I would not read a book like that because it does the one thing Jesus did not do……..and thats condemn “for their is now no condemnation for those who r in christ Jesus”……..so if a point is to be argued against us then a person should argue in a manner that isnt set out to degrade, anyone can do that (be a bully)…….Intelligence and research always comes across best mixed with respect and experience.

Seems for some reason many regard personal experience as rubbish, when actually i would much rather read a book about someone who has had some personal experience in something than someone who hasnt.

Same as someone who has actually driven a car, they really know what they are faced with and experienced the whole caboodle both good and bad compared to someone who has read a book about how to drive a car, who then writes a book about what they gathered from the books about driving a car, telling me the do’s and dont’s, pitfalls and suggestions, and yet not experienced what it is actually like being on the open road……..Theirs a big difference!!!!!!!! Driving from wa to nsw(twice there and back) certainly gave me knew skills i will have for life and near death experiences to forget lol wink (Although it is a beautiful drive.)

(by making the comments i have made i am not having a dig at anyone or meaning any disrespect)

This is where the cruc of the problem is… who do you believe. A writer who has some ideas what we face daily or a writer who has been there and done that. These are words, words, thoughts, observations, beliefs and perspectives. The difference is look at the fruit… you shall know them by their fruit of the labour.

I don’t really ask for a lot you know. Just the simple things like acceptance, to get on with living and just enjoying life in a christian environment. Sometimes I wonder why I can be joking about things and I realised alot of it is masking what I am feeling inside. Why should I trust mankinds words.

When you look at the bible and whats inside it… please tell me, what happens to the faithful ones … look at what David did to his best friend (have him killed off) and taken on his wife and yet he’s with God. Wow… oh there’s Saul who killed hundred of christian and became Paul … ummm it aint pretty – but in light of this and considering I alway had a disire to be “good” and considering my orientation isn’t what majority would call normal. I did well… I didn’t marry and have children and use my wife as a blanket for the fact that I felt Gay all my life. There is an ‘if’ factor and straight people are saying to us… get a woman and get married and have children and you will be cured. In Africa men with Aids will have sex with babies that are not even 3 months old to be cured from Aids. It’s shocking you know, jus what we put ourselves through. It just leaves me feeling very weak in the knee.

It is real struggle everyday, finding that balance in life… the concerns I have is that in 20 years time I will be 60 will I facing today when I am 60? Oh I hope not and I pray that God will take me home soon – Im just fed up with the charades really. I’m not sure where I am supposed to be… and I do know where I am with Christ in all this… times likes these will come to pass.

I rather choose a book that shows that reconciliation with God is a real thing that can happen than a book that doesn’t really bring us closer to God.

I have not yet found a book written similar to Anthony’s or in an academic way… mankind will always have swinging issues which is why I choose to stick with God because at least he promises me that God will never change its own colour.

ta Craig

My answer to “the crux of the problem” is simple: the bible. The question I ask is “Does this interpretation of X, Y, Z (whatever the topic is) coincide with a true biblical viewpoint.” I have said it a thousand times and I will say it again because I think it’s something we all need to be reminded of myself included, our feelings should come second to the facts! If I was to read a book that had an outlandish stance on a particular topic, but made God accessible (for example defined the parameters of God’s power, his character and his likely future events) I would ‘feel’ that this would bring me closer to an understanding of God. What it has done is fill my head with crap that sounds nice on paper.

I have discovered is that many people, including people I have conversed with on this site, discover or re-discover their relationship with God, then come to terms with their sexuality, then interpret the bible verses to fit this preconceived understanding… Is it only me that thinks this is backwards? If we are to believe that the bible is the true word of God then our relationship with Him and the decisions we make about other aspects of our lives (i.e.: sexuality) should be based on these biblical texts, we should not interpret the bible already having made these decisions and looking for ways to legitimize them.

Craig mentioned that he wants acceptance and happiness, well firstly, welcome to the club :), but talking with a conservative Christian friend of mine today I was challenged to wonder if that’s what God really wants for us. Look at Abraham, Moses, Paul and many of the other big names of the bible, were their lives happy? Were they accepted? Our goal is not to live personally happy lives; our goal is to glorify God in our lives, and something we can’t do if we pursue happiness at the expense of biblical truth.

Also in relation to your comments on David and Saul, they are wonderful examples of God’s grace. Does that mean that God approved of their actions? Does His grace, grace he gives out of love and unlimited patience, legitimize us living unfaithful lives simply because we know we can rely on God to save us?

I agree that many ignorant straight Christians suggest that if you marry you will be cured, you and I know that this is silly. They are ignorant, in most cases they don’t mean any harm, they are actually trying to help. I’m not sure how I would feel as Anthony reading your post and reading you basically saying “I did well, at least I didn’t get married like you”… It’s not particularly helpful to compare yourself to others experiences. You are your own person and you are the only person responsible for you actions, God will judge us each individually and I can’t imagine Him saying “Ok well at least you didn’t get married like that guy!” We all need to have our own personal standards of behavior that relate to our specific life experiences and circumstances.

There are a couple of books out there (admittedly very few) that do not promote a cure to homosexuality but these individuals have been able to live holy, godly lives without intimate, sexual relationships. There is no point denying that you or I have homosexual feelings. It’s pointless because we are denying the truth. I am grateful for all the amazing people in my life that have helped me discover (hopefully with some clarity) that it’s ok to admit what I regard as a sin. I am gay. I believe it to be a sin. I intend to live a holy and godly life. My life is not my own and my personal happiness takes a backseat to His plan. Not every anti-gay book depicts a lack of reconciliation with God. I feel that I myself am reconciled with God while still believing homosexuality to be a sin. And to be honest reading these posts over the last few months has done nothing to convince me otherwise, I’m hearing allot of feelings and allot of hurt, what I have failed to discover is fact.

In response to Maggie’s post I just want to point out that Jesus wasn’t always sunshine and daises. He thew tables to the ground in the temple. He refers to Peter as Satan! Jesus got angry! And I believe when he looks at some of the horrible things happening in this world he still feels the same righteous anger. But his anger comes from love, like a parent angry with a child. Love is not always hugs and kisses; sometimes it needs to be cruel to be kind. Sometimes Jesus tells us “to get behind him Satan”.

hey all. i just wunto say that it’s a great thing that A LIFE OF UNLEARNING is stocked by mainstream booksellers, especially by christian booksellers such as this one.

as anthony reminds us, life is a journey of learning and re-learning. PRAISE GOD that the journey that these booksellers are taking now makes this life-saving book available to the secret and hidden glbtq’s, their spiritual mentors and their families.

the fact that this basically fundamentalist-driven, pentecostally (there’s a new word for your next book, anthony lol) well-respected book seller carries A LIFE OF UNLEARNING is a great encouragement also to other mainstream booksellers to carry the book.

PRAISE GOD! 🙂

*raises eyebrows* perhaps I should clarify. I do understand that the ‘process’ is emotional. I would be a hypocrite to claim that my emotions have not influenced my posts. The point I was making is that emotion, in many cases, prevents us from viewing the world with clarity. None of us are objective, we all carry our life experiences and preconceived ideas around with us and they influence our perceptions. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight against this and attempt to see the world as objectively as we know how.

The point you made about the bible being made up of experiences is a good one and truth be told it gave me pause for a moment. The difference though between the experiences of people in the Bible and ours today is that they are in the inspired word of God. Christian people are receptacles of God’s grace and love on earth, the experiences of certain individuals in the Bible reflect this. I am not suggesting that your own personal experiences are any less significant to you personally or to God, but should they be put up as the benchmark for all Christians to follow as is so with the bible?

You are both smart women so I have no doubt that you have ‘evidence’ to support your claims. If you find the time I would appreciate you PM’ng it to me so we can discuss it in further detail. Ok, my apology for not being understanding enough of other peoples largely emotional response. Still, you can have all the ‘understanding’ in the world and get nowhere, the understanding offered by others is a great thing, I’m not diminishing it’s importance, but without the truth its all words.

I did not suggest that most people justify their sexual practices through their emotion. What I said was many people do. Just like many of our straight brothers and sisters justify greed, pornography and other issues that are not God’ best for us.

I’m wondering why you added your “I…” statements? They were certainly enlightening information on you personally but your experiences do not change the facts. God does not pick and choose who can be actively homosexual (sorry Anthony, I know you hate that phrase) and who can not based on their experiences, it’s the same for everyone, whether you were an ‘out’ gay turned Christian like me or a ‘gay-Christian’ like yourself.

Emotions don’t have conviction it is the facts and understanding of God that involves this conviction, which you are searching out.

Conviction comes from finding what we each perceive to be truth. This ‘truth’ is relative and is not the same for everyone. That does not mean that we are all right, some of us must be misguided if so many people say conflicting things. An Islamic person can be very convicted in their beliefs, the only place it’s going to get them is a one-way ticket to hell.

Perhaps I should clarify my position on the issue in general. I’m not totally right-wing fundamentalist. I do not believe homosexuality can be cured. I do believe it to be sin and not the way God wants me to live. I do not connect my repression of my sexuality (and yes I’m not denying that I repress it) with shame. I have asked God to forgive me for my past and He has, I have no need to feel shame. I am not evil or perverted. I openly identify myself as gay (and watch in amusement as my conservative brothers and sisters wince). Feelings of shame come with denial, guilt and other unhelpful feelings. I don’t feel any of it to be honest, which has probably contributed to my lack of understanding of others feelings.

I’m not thrilled that this is the path God has chosen for me, I know that I will have to sacrifice a lot, but really, who cares? Our savior died for us, any petty sacrifices I make don’t even compare.

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