Homosexuality is Unnatural?

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Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
March 8, 2007, 11:16

hey bruce…….are you talking from a male perspective here about anal sex or are you talking about two people of the same sex loving each other?

Joined in 2006
March 8, 2007, 11:26

Sorry Bruce, I guess we missed each others points, I never said that Just because animals do it that it makes it right for us, only that we look at things as a whole……….Levitical law was nailed to the cross as it says in colossians about the ordinances. Regarding corinthians, they were also well known to use sex in the worship of idols and one problem that Paul was faced with was that they still believed they had to appease our living God the same way sexual ritualistically as they did their idols before these people were saved.

I never said we dont have to follow any of the Bible shock , I am sure you are well meaning enough not to place words in my mouth I did not say, Yes I follow everything Jesus ever taught and believe he is the way to the Father and follow his Law that he stated we should follow. I also never said that the Bible wasnt written directly for us either, all I said was that Jesus didnt die for the animals he died for us, how you miusunderstood that I dont know. And I also never argued the point that sin is any different only stated that in the old testament kings chosen by God had multiple partners, people married their cousins and Adam and Eves kids procreated together(incestuously) obviously since because their was no one else and so how else would the world begin, but it doesnt mean we are to lie with our own family as we have learnt by what we have been taught in the new covenant. And please dont misconstrue what I have written wink ….I am glad we are having this discussion because its a great way to come to some understanding, regardless of whether we agree to disagree or not wink

Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 13:06

frogger, in Genesis it says God cursed the earth. This was a result of sin. The best example of this is where animals were originally plant eating. Only effects of sin could make them change to eating meat.

avb, I’m talking about homosexual acts. It’s a different thing to think you’re a homosexual and love someone or even be tempted, but the sin starts where it turns into acts and lust.

Magsdee, I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth I was just trying to follow your logic.

I don’t have a problem with most of what you said, the problem I have is when people try to change what is regarded as sin. It’s clear that everything outlined in the law is considered sin, other than what God has specifically changed. We have no right to change what is considered sin, or to add to the discontinued laws between the OT and NT. This is God’s perfect law which he gave for a reason. Romans 3 shows us everyone is under the authority of the law. It doesn’t determine our salvation but that doesn’t mean we ignore it.

Read Matt 5:17. Jesus says we should still obey the law. Not only that, but those who teach otherwise will be called the least in the kingdom. So my point is; It’s your prerogative to decide how you live but be careful what you preach. Teaching that laws don’t apply to us when God hasn’t said so is a VERY dangerous path to walk.

Joined in 2005
March 8, 2007, 13:39

i have to tell you that i dont agree with your logic. But, i respect your difference of opinion. I believe God set us free from the old law. I believe that many things in the Bible were relative to that time. In particular in this discussion, the verses in the new testament are a reflection of that culture. Same sex acts were an act of prostitution and an act of sexual gratification.

I personally do not believe that applies to today’s discussion. Homosexuality between to heterosexual people is unnatural and a sin according to these verses. But, my natural inclination towards women, is not sin. Because it would be UNNATURAL for me to be with a man…

This is my view. In regards to God cursing the earth. Does it say what specifically on the earth he cursed. Only because my understanding of the earth, is the physical ground, the flora and fauna, h2o…. i do not consider animals to be apart of the earth. Neither do i consider myself of the earth. Even though i am aware we originally were created from the earth. It says we were created from the earth and will die to the earth. Not that we are the earth…. these are my thoughts…

On another note regarding these verses. As a Greek speaking person i find the translation of Arsenokoitai as homosexuality as misrepresentation. It is an unknown word, with no clear only presumed interpretation. With the Bible speaks of fornication, it a deception to assume this means homosexuality considering fornication literally translates as fornication

c.1300, from O.Fr. fornication, from L.L. fornicationem (nom. fornicatio), from fornicari “fornicate,” from L. fornix (gen. fornicis) “brothel,” originally “arch, vaulted chamber” (Roman prostitutes commonly solicited from under the arches of certain buildings), from fornus “oven of arched or domed shape.” Strictly, “voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman;” extended in the Bible to adultery.

(note this is from

Marriage as a jurisdiction of the government is a fairly recent thing. I believe common law marriage is equal to marriage. In Jesus time they did not have a piece of paper, or have to pay money. They merely presented themselves to their friends and family as two people who would be together forever. Which my partner and I did. Therefore, i can not possibly be considered an adulterer… there is no logic to this statement… not that you have suggested this… just my thoughts coming out as a stream

God please grant me Luke 21:15 (taken from

For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

and please 2 Corinthians 6:11-13 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also.

In Jesus name Amen

Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 15:03

I believe that many things in the Bible were relative to that time. In particular in this discussion, the verses in the new testament are a reflection of that culture. Same sex acts were an act of prostitution and an act of sexual gratification.

I personally do not believe that applies to today’s discussion. Homosexuality between to heterosexual people is unnatural and a sin according to these verses. But, my natural inclination towards women, is not sin. Because it would be UNNATURAL for me to be with a man…

Sin is sin no matter what culture or time you’re in. The law was perfect, made by God. Why would it be any less perfect today then it was back then? Sin is clear cut, there is no ifs or buts. If it’s a sin for me then it’s a sin for you. What about people who don’t know their sexual orientation or are half way between? What is a sin for them? It’s not clearly defined so this idea is flawed.

And about that word being defined as fornication really doesn’t help you because the Bible defines marriage between a man and a woman. If you can show me where it says otherwise then I’ll gladly take that back.

When you said we are free from the law, you have to define what free is. It doesn’t mean freedom to do what you want and doesn’t mean the law no longer applies. It just means our salvation is no longer dependent on it. I already pointed out that the law still applies today and gave scripture to back it up.

What you have to ask is:

1. Is it a sin under the law of the OT?

2. If you answered yes, then did God specifically say it is no longer a sin?

3. If you answered no, then it is still a sin, no matter what.

If you can give me scriptures to show the answer to question 2 is yes then I’ll believe you and take everything back.

Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 15:18

Bruce you are misunderstanding me yet again. Sorry buddy cant reply to you anymore. 😯 Oh well, interesting discussion

Frogger I like your response and having a greek background I think you would understand some things better. 🙂

I didn’t misunderstand anything. I said I agreed with most of what you said. The only part I don’t agree with is changing what is defined as sin, and all you did was avoid the question. Noone has given any real evidence yet so you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

Joined in 2006
March 8, 2007, 15:20

Try this leg Bruce

Colossians 213-15(nkjv)

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him. (rsv version)

13 You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; R7 14 he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross. R8 15 And on that cross Christ freed himself from the power of the spiritual rulers and authorities; F5 he made a public spectacle of them by leading them as captives in his victory procession. (good news version)

Hand writing of requirements was of the old testament ordinances attached alongside the ten commandments. which included eating shellfish, mixing ur vege garden and ur fabric. ten commandments stayed the rest was wiped out…….the ten actually covers everything that it needs to cover.

So everytime you eat prawns, wear certain clothes, (the act of two men laying together came under the same set of ordinances) so then we are all in trouble…….also the law allowed people to be stoned for what they did, you say the law still stands of the OT well then stick by it….Look into all the 600 ordinances and see which ones u follow or break.

Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 15:50

That doesn’t really help you, all it is saying is that we are no longer required to obey the law to receive salvation. Stuff like animal sacrifices were abolished but the rest remains as sin.

How do you explain Matt 5:17? And it isn’t only about the 10 commandments. That’s yet another addition you’ve made to the Bible that clearly isn’t there.

Let me ask you another question:

Why do you think God made it law for homosexuals to be put to death in the OT?

Joined in 2007
March 8, 2007, 16:48

The word of God is good enough, but you have to consider it all not just a few verses. I think you just interpret the scripture differently. Can you at least tell me how Matt 5:17 fits in with this doctrine of yours? Jesus said the law was not abolished, but fulfilled. Meaning that he has fulfilled the requirements for us by grace. Having the law fulfilled doesn’t mean it is no longer important. Make sure to read verse 19 as well. Jesus doesn’t say the 10 commandments either, he is referring to the whole law.

And you didn’t answer my previous question either.

Joined in 2006
March 8, 2007, 18:29

Hi Bruce here is the scripture in more of its entirety, Jesus goes on to talk about most of the 10 commandments as examples of the law he means(this topic of the lords goes on to verse 46). I am sorry you cant see that……Its obvious to me…..The passage explains itself. Bless you Bruce, I am taking Jesus example and not arguing the word of God with you anymore, if you walk in a way that you feel is pleasing to God go for it, because by faith so am I. Paul said it well when he said we should live peacefully and not be obsessed with arguing every point of doctrine wink

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause F19 shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

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