it is not about treating you unfairly Bruce. I think these conversation are arbitrary and pointless. You have made up your mind. This forum is also not really an appropriate place for this discussion. It is not personal. I have many friends who argue on this topic with me. Im happy to argue as long as they udnersatand i am not changing my view for them. Just as i wont for you. I studied it for nearly ten years before i knew i what i believed with Godly grace, mercy and conviction. Someone who has a different view is not going to shake me. God already did and that is how i came to a place of trust in His word. People wont change me, God changes me.

You have chosen to only engage with us in one area of discussion. You have shared nothing of yourself. This is not a theological forum. It a forum for support… You want to get to know us sure, post your story and be a part of more discussion other than an argumentative discussion.

its not in anyway personal, just not the place to engage in this discussion…

I had an experience yesterday also which i would like to relay:

I was in Manly after a long bushwalk with a friend & we bumped into a woman about my age & had a chat, the conversation point being her stick-weilding Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Now, i don’t look affeminate or camp in any way, & the woman was commenting that she was impressed the dog came to us for a pat. “He dosen’t like many people you see, he especially dosen’t like poofs”

Thinking that i had misheard what she had said, i asked her to repeat herself “poofs” she repeated twice adding that she had been at a park the previous day & the dog completely ignored a soccer player with a light blue ball. She then informed us for good measure that the dog did not like Arabs, either.

My friend, who is as straight as they come motioned to me “come on mate, let’s go” & the woman looked confused as to why we wanted to end the conversation so soon. She was clearly clueless as to the fact that she had been talking directly to a gay man (my friend is Jewish, perhaps she wanted to take a shot there, too).

As i walked away, as you do, i went over in my head what i should have said to her, this human dumpling with a broad westie accent, something like : “Actually madam, point of fact, i think it may be you trying to project your prejudices through your dog unsuccessfully because…your dog has just happliy run straight up to a gay man” or something similar.

My mate & i laughed about it at the time, but afterwards it started to knaw at me at make me feel really flat because the experience had bounced me right back to being a closeted teenager hearing responses like that through the 80’s & early 90’s & realising how every time i’d heard something like that it had halted or delayed any self-realisation or progress. How ignorant statements like that kept me in the closet for so long.

Even though i have ben out 10 years & live in the gayest city in the world, i have to tell you…….it still aches.

Hi Reve, I sometimes wish that Bruce would go stuck on a lolly pop… his vexative questionings and arguements has caused us to loose sight of your post.

I too giggled at that part where you would have said something like that… mate it gets everyone down when you hear that kind of comment and your jewish friend moved you on rather than stay and listen to any more of what this woman was saying.

I think its why we need to have humour and try and move on. I whinch when that happens. Half the time I am trying to calm my friend saying it doesn’t bother me much and at night I’d be sobbing into my pillow. Mate, it’s never going to get easy, I suppose it means that we will have no ego issues and mellowed by the time the world has finished with us.

It’s not just what they say, is how they move away when they find out that you’re gay. A good friend looked horrified and I had to let him down gently… he isn’t my type. At least I was honest in that I said he was too ugly for me to wake up in the morning to him. I just couldn’t help suppress my smile but that was wiped off completely just seeing his facial expression. Then you have others who’d say “sod off” and have this big grin “ain’t I sexy enough for you” – that really cracks me up and I always say mate

Why do we put up with such behaviour…. hmmmm ….. I had a little giggle the other day at work… a friend at work was having some issues about men… and one she has broken up with ages ago can’t let go… and she was going out with this really nice guy. Well two days after Valentine day her ex- sends a big bunch of flower basically apologising to her for asking her hand in marriage! Phooowwww! Anyway, we were talking to her… the psychologist was trying to help by analysising the siutation like a big brother protecting her, the senior case worker was more fatherly and said to “fuck em” then it was me saying look at the card… see he accepts that he can’t be with you and that he is moving on… and then another person, woman… saying why not have both of em…. to which the person went ewww yuk… and I quipped in and said “Susan… it doesn’t work that way, only Gay people can do that” Giggles. Sigh out of the mouth of the babes sprouts pearls of wisdom – not. But it did cause everyone to laugh and the psychologist looked at me in a new way (could he be gay – he’s so cute!) Ok he’s hot! I just wish other people could see that in him.

Hey have a good week.

Craig.

Hey, why is that people think we are so unatural! Where is it coming from… I mean… I’m in a situation in a meeting with a group… and they ae talking so casually about things… they start talking about their family membes who are gay and really gas bang em for being so Gay and then you meet those who have family members and treat us as equals… sigh… I can never really work those two groups of people.

Hmmmm

Craig.

Hi Brunski

You make a good point that whether something is natural or not for animals may not be the case for humans. And whether it’s natural or not for humans, may not make it right.

Have you read any of the articles in our resource section? There are some useful ones by Nettleton and Dyer that don’t necessarily give conclusive answers but they look more deeply into the contexts of the bible and so shed another possible interpretation. It’s food for thought anyway as you journey toward finding the truth for yourself.

Keep looking.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

Hi Brunski,

This information is relevant because accusations against us commonly include the claim that our sexual orientation is not natural. Though I kind of agree with you that nature is a bad argument on which to base morality (polygamy is clearly “natural” for human beings but we abandoned it long ago because it is immoral).

But, to put things simply, evidence of same sex relationships amongst animals places the burden of proof on those who claim it is not natural for humans (i.e. that humans are a special case). Or, as I have heard it said, homosexuality has been found amongst many species, homophobia in just one. Which is “unnatural”?