17, closeted and otherwise exceedingly boring...

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Joined in 2007
February 27, 2008, 21:31

Maggie, if you read around those verses say from 15-22 it becomes overwealmingly obvious that Jesus is talking about forgiveness. I can’t remember, did you once say you grew up Catholic? If you have then you are probably familar with the Lord’s Prayer. “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others who have sinned against us”. It is apparent that we need to forgive others in order to be forgiven by Christ ourselves. Jesus says that if someone sins against you then you are to go to certain people and show his fault. The binding and loosening refers to the binding and loosening of sin. If we gather together with two or more people and pray that the Lord forgives person x for what they have done to us then it will be loosed in heaven, or forgiven by the father in heaven. The same goes with binding when we don’t pray for the frgivness for others their sin is bound by God. Note also that this is only in the case of them not reciognising their sin and asking for forgivness themselves as was the circumstance of Jesus’ example. The classic example of this being true is Jesus on the cross asking God to forgive man, even though we did not achknowledge our sinfulness.

Its obvious that the whole passage from 15-20 is talking about the same thing because Jesus repeats himself and keeps coming back to his main points “again I tell you”.

I don’t see how this passage has anything to do with recreating the rules on anything including premarital sex or divorce. In no way is Jesus refering to that, the passage does not even make a passing referance to individualistic interpretation of biblical mandates.

Shantih Shantih Shantih
Joined in 2008
February 27, 2008, 21:51

This one has me a little stumped…not sure what to believe at the moment… 😕

I’m actually thinking that it probably comes down to our individual definitions or interpretations of ‘calling’ and (to a lesser extent) ‘celibacy.’ When I refer to a ‘calling’ I may not necessarily be saying the same thing anyone else is.

Anyway, given that my opinions on the subject are now foggy at best, I think I’m going to follow Magsdee and remain quiet on it for a while.

Interesting take on Matthew 18:18-20, by the way Sandy. Never really understood that verse, but you have a good point…

Joined in 2007
February 27, 2008, 22:01

I agree my interpretation is abit of a stretch in places. The whole binding and loosening thing is odd and is a bit of an enigma. My point though was that Maggies argument of the passage refering to an individual or group being able to redefine biblical mandates is obviously not what the passage is on about at all. The binding and loosening has something to do with forgivness, what exactly is a bit murkey but I gave it my best shot.

Anthony Venn-Brown
Joined in 2005
February 27, 2008, 23:39

too heavy a conversation for me…..:oops: …I think i’m out of here 😆 😆 😆

Joined in 2006
February 28, 2008, 08:38

😆 😆 yes I must agree also on that point Anthony.

I do see the passages you define quite differently Sandy and not quite as far stretched as you think that we can do as we please LOL. So as not to diverge from the thread will leave it at that. Re: Celibacy for life, what God calls us to personally, is an individual relational thing between a person and God, we all know where the spirit is leading us at the best of times even if occassionally we hit and miss along the way. I know im not called to be an Apostle for eg.

Joined in 2007
February 28, 2008, 09:55

Well… since everyone is bailing out (meant in the nicest way possible) I guess that means I won? 😆 kidding, kidding.

Frankly I have no idea how you could possibly believe that binding and loosening stuff has anything at all to do with anything outside the realm of forgiveness, the whole chapter talks of nothing else. Maybe some other time you could explain that to me, usually I at least have some idea where you are coming from, this time I’m totally lost :shock:.

Since there is ample evidence of the imorality of premarital sex and more debatably homosexual sex I stand by my celibacy is not a calling idea. I will however admit to being prejudiced because so many people justify their ‘fornication’ by saying celibacy is not their calling. The whole thing started with me venting in the first place so I need to get over that resentment before I can be objective.

Anyway lets stop this discussion here unless Raskdog has something to say about premarital sex being a biblical no-no since that was his specific question.

Joined in 2006
February 28, 2008, 14:06

Who won???????? 😉 ok we’ll will have to resort to arm wrestling then, best out of 3 😆 8)

I do agree that celibacy is a choice and also that some are called to it since I have met people who are just unusually not in anyway interested in any close r/ship with anyone, almost Priestlike. I guess one could do a whole study on the subject really, that could be very interesting. Ive always agreed to monogamy not sleeping around but thats me.

Regarding the binding and loosing leave it with me and I will email you some stuff I believe in regarding that, we all grasp different things and aspects sometimes of scripture, just like when you can read a passage a million times then one day it jumps out like a rubber band at you and makes sense.

Dove Snuggler
Joined in 2007
February 28, 2008, 21:31

Hi William

I could say that the only difference between generations is a change in technology. But I would miss two distinct issues: society changes and prejudices don’t.

You started your story with a great deal of enthusiasm and your posts are very inspiring. Of course I was once a 16 or 17-year-old guy and I can relate in some ways to your story. I had my first intimate gay sexual experience at 15 and subsequently had a mutual relationship at age 18. I was made aware that sex was ‘dirty’ when I was 6 or 7 but I didn’t process the idea that the Christian church disapproved of homosexuality until I was in my mid teens. It was a confusing time back then and you have far more resources at your disposal than I did. That doesn’t mean it is any easier for you.

On this site you have experienced a variety of opinions. Sandy said: “…we are all commanded to be chaste and practise abstinence outside of marriage…” She also said: “When God said ‘it is not good for man to be alone’ I don’t think He meant merely in the realm of an intimate, physical relationship.”

I personally do not subscribe to this celibacy argument. I believe that God made people to have a partner, that heterosexuals fulfil this by marrying and that GLBTIQ people fulfil this by making a commitment to a partner of the same gender. However, God does not deny forgiveness to people who engage in sexual relationships outside of marriage. For some of us sexual relationships are the way to understand ourselves, to satisfy personal needs or to find a life partner. (I can’t help myself but to add that safe sex is vitally important to prevent contracting sexually transmitted and life-threatening diseases such as HIV/AIDS).

If you need a biblical justification for my point of view, then perhaps you’ll find it in the words of Jesus: “…I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matt. 5:28). He doesn’t say the guy or woman is damned or condemned to hell. He’s talking about something that is common to humankind. We all sin. His point is that we share the burden of humanity that is our physical/sexual attraction to another person … in our case to someone of the same gender. And it’s OK!!! OK in the sense that until we work out how we can fulfil our destiny, God is with us in our intimate relationships.

Don’t be afraid as you seek to find your place in this rubbery world. You’ve arrived at a very important place in time. I look forward to hearing more of your enthusiasm.

Wishing you well.


Joined in 2007
February 28, 2008, 22:49

Since your post wasn’t dirrected at me Kit I won’t say much except to clarify that I too agree that Jesus forgives all sin when we ask Him, no one is condemned to hell for practising pre-marital sex. However this does not negate the fact that premarital sex is sin, if it wasn’t we wouldn’t need forgivness in the first place.

Joined in 2007
February 29, 2008, 08:07

Fascinating discussion to arise in the Telling Our Stories section! Shantih, you must have done something to us all. 😉

I’m just going to throw on little thing in… and see if I can foul everything up.

The rules about who can and can’t get married have been made by men, not God, and have changed quite a lot over the centuries.

Just because the current rules in this country won’t let me get married to another man, doesn’t make me think I’ve been ‘called’ to celibacy.

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