Hi Sandy,

Its been very interesting reading through posts that so many people have put up on various issues on this site. You can really get a glimpse into each members personality.

In many of your posts, especialy in this discussion primarily between you, William and Kit you often refer to “homo-erotic” behavior and the bible condeming it. I read your last post and in it you talked a little about the differences between “homosexuality” and “homo-erotic”. I had a few questions on your views so I could better understand where you are coming from. Ok, so here is a list of questions.

1. As I understand it, you are a lesbian right? You choose however not to persue an intimate encounter or relationship with another woman?

2. When you refer to homo-erotic behavior, are you refering to sex?

3. What are the bible verses you are refering to that condemn an intimate relationship (or sex) between a monogomous gay couple?

I am just curious because you constanly refer back to the bible stating that God condemns “homo-erotic” behavior……

Every verse or passage I have read in the bible when really interpreted correctly doesnt mention anything about a loving commited relationship between a gay couple.

If there is I would really love to know. I am curious as to your interpretations of what ever scriptures you are refering to that justify your stance on an intimate homosexual relationship.

John

Hi John,

I have posted on what identifying as a lesbian means but I can’t for the life of me remember where it is. Basically, I am attracted to women so if thats what you mean then yes I am ‘lesbian’. However, outside of this site I don’t usually identify myself as ‘lesbian’ or ‘gay’ because the terms are so static. To say you are something indicates that there is no hope of change and the jury is still out on the change issue for me. I use “gay” on this site because saying “I am a women who is attracted to other women and thinks that maybe people can change” is too long and detracts from the intention of most of my posts. Yes I choose not to pursue sexual or romantic relationships theoretically, I am sinful and we all slip occasionally.

By homo-erotic I mean anything of an erotic nature that involves two people of the same-sex. That could mean the physical act of sex, any types of foreplay including kissing and lusting or fantasizing about someone of the same sex. These things are all erotic in nature. Eroticism is more in the intention than the act, I kiss my mum and my sister all the time but my intentions towards them are not erotic in nature.

It always amuses me when people ask me what verses I am referring to. It’s like the people who realize your gay and say “Haven’t you read Romans 1?” As if any person who has ever struggled with their sexuality and God could possibly miss it! Anyway back to the point, I am referring to the heterosexual marriage emphasis in Genesis, the ‘clobber passages’ of Romans 1:18-32, 1Corinthians:6:9-11 and 1Timothy 1:9-11. I guess it depends on what you mean by “really interpreted”. I believe these passages when “really interpreted” serve to condemn all gay relationships, monogamous or otherwise. I understand you are probably convinced that there were same-sex relationships among key figures in the bible and that is where you get your ‘monogamy makes a difference’ argument but then I would suggest that you have not “really interpreted” the passages.

There are millions of books out there that deal with the validity of different interpretations, if you are further interested in the conservative view I suggest you pick one up. These books are hundreds of pages long and it would be unwise of me to imagine I could condense their arguments sufficiently into a ‘post length’ size.

thanks for that Sandy and John

Hi Sandy,

I just read your story and all the posts up until now. What an amazing story you have!! I can’t wait to read Anthony’s book. Im sure everybody in this forum has. I want to be more informed.

I understand where you are coming from a little better after reading some of your responses. This web site is addicting!!! I did nothing at work today. Like, 9am to 9pm infront of the computer reading peoples stories and writing a little myself.

I love a good debate and your a good debater!! LOL 😆 I suppose I relate quite a bit to your views in a way because I would have said the exact same things just a short while ago. I am still making my own conclustions.

Its kind of ironic, yet typical, you were living a more active gay lifestyle before you came to Christ, then once you were saved backed away from it a great deal. Ive been a christian since I was little, then realized I was gay, backed away from the more conservative lifestyle and have dove into living an active gay role in society!!

There has to be some kind of comon ground here. Not one or the other. Thats why I think this site is so amazing, seems to be what this website is all about right? 😉

Just ordered my copy on amazon.com! Who knows how long it will take to get down here though. Its being delivered to my place in Hawaii, then Joe is going to send it to me down here in ElSalvador. That book is going to go half way around the world before I get to read it!! 😕

😆

Yeah, Ive been reading a LOT of posts. I kind of feel like I need to catch up, so that way I can make more informative comments. Ive read all of yours and Williams AND the gay marraige one. Ive been on this site today for actually more than 12 hours! LOL!

I just feel like a kid in a candy store though! I have never read so many things that I agree with and relate too. Its awesome!! That and I do have quite a bit of time on my hands as I dont have a full squadon of aircraft to deal with like I would back in hawaii.

Ok IM SLEEPING NOW!!! 😛 😆 No more posting for me… until tomorrow morning….. LOL! 😆

It is different, and alot of the slack the conservative stance gets is not because the theology is dodgey but because people have felt oppressed by the rules and regulations for years and blame the conservative stance for that oppression. I don’t live in other peoples shoes so I’m not about to judge anyone for getting married as a gay person, I do however think there is an element of personal responsibility involved in the oppression people feel, perhaps more so today than was the case 20 years ago.

You know you should work for the FBI or something, your very good at uncovering the heart of the matter 😆 . Before you can understand my responce you need to understand a bit more about my past I think. I grew up a church-going Catholic, which spiritually meant close to nothing but in terms of my worldview it moulded me quite significantly. First, I grew up with the idea that you were just expected to conform, and as a child I didn’t question that (I’m making uo for lost time now). Second, the catholic church has a very central and I think very wise thology of suffering. Think about it, what is the symbol of the Catholic church? The crucifix, Jesus suffering on the cross. And what is the symbol of the Prodestatnt Church? The empty cross, Jesus risen. One is a theology of suffering and the other a theology of joy and hope. I grew up being able to but Jesus and suffering together in my head without one detracting from the other, I guess I have never felt abandoned in my suffering because of that.

Your absolutly right, I did have preconcieved mindsets. Christian people told me that the only way to be a Christian was to not live the ‘homosexual lifestyle’ (their words not mine) any longer, and I believed them. I didn’t know how to read or interpret the bible and the ‘clobber passgages’ seem pretty damming if you take them at face value. I was completly unaware that pro-gay theology existed.

I joke that I’m masochistic because I always tend to do what I feel is going to be wrong or painful but know is right. When I did eventually realise there was such a thing as pro-gay theology I went a bit crazy and started to read anything I could on the subject. LOL I remember sending Anthony an email after reading his book and if must have had about 15 questions in it to which he replied “you know Sandy I don’t have all the answers eaither…”. I think I have read about 90% of the books out there on Christianity and homosexuality and thats ALOT of books. I guess I felt like I had been cheated by not knowing and come on, lets face it, as gay Christians we all hope there is some loop hole that is going to allow us to have God which we need and the relationship we want.

But after reading hundreds of books I still wasn’t 100% convinced. So I decided not to read anything and just pray hoping for some divine reverlation (you have to realise I grew up catholic and then moved to the Evangelical chruch so I don’t have the same faith in one-on-one reverlation as Pentacostals do) this was a bit of a last resort. Anyway long story short nothing much happened, I still felt like I didn’t want to give up Marina but the books I had read, dispite learning all I could about pro-gay theology pointed the other way. So then I read the bible, twice through hoping that would help and it didn’t. *shrugs* in the end the books, with their scientific, historical, lingusistic and theological evidence served to convince me of one hard and fast fact, I have absolutly no idea whether homosexuality is 100% a sin.

From there I use the 100% argument that is on a post above. I am more convinced of conservative theology because I see the bible as the word of God and that is why I say it is a sin, not because I know 100% but because its my most predominant theory. So you can read from that what you like into whether it was God convicting me or the church. If your asking whether I have had some personal, divine reverlation or sense of inner contentment about the issue then no I havn’t.

Also let me just clear up one thing, I seperated me from Marina and I continue to do so. I do not blame the church or God, it was my choice. Yes I didn’t have all the facts at the time and it might have been helpful if I did but now I do have those facts and we are still apart. In the end I’m not with Marina because I love her too much. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but I would always have the “what if its a sin?” question in the back of my mind and she deserves better than that. God too deserves better than that. To put a relationship first that could be sin is idolotry. I would not jepodise my relationship with God by sharing His place with somone else and then do that person a disservice by not being 100% certain.

I don’t know whether the Chruches view would have presuaded me otherwise if they were pro-gay, quite possibly I guess. I can say however that if the BIBLE were different, if the word of God said is ok to be in a same-sex relationship I would never have left. Untimatly it is God’s word as I believe it to be interpreted that has made the choice for me not the Chruch or the people who attend it.

Sorry Anthony this is hardly a short post…. 😆

Yet again! The more I hear about your past and your views the more I understand where you are coming from now. 😆

To be honest, at first, reading your responses to various posts on this site I was like “Who is this girl? I do not get her one bit!” LOL! 😆 But after reading your story and hearing a little more about where you are coming from and your background I can see understand your views better. My hat is definitly off to you, thats for certain. I dont think I could not be in a relationship. That must take a lot of strength. I think your intentions are very commendable.

You did answer my question very well I might add. You summed it up quite nicely in your last paragraph.

I don’t know whether the Chruches view would have presuaded me otherwise if they were pro-gay, quite possibly I guess. I can say however that if the BIBLE were different, if the word of God said is ok to be in a same-sex relationship I would never have left. Untimatly it is God’s word as I believe it to be interpreted that has made the choice for me not the Chruch or the people who attend it.

You know what I would like to do. I would love to break open those old ancient 2000 year old scrolls my self and read it straight from there! 😕

I dont want to base my interpretation of the bible off of some random web site, but at the same time, a lot of what I have read has raised a very valid argument. I wish we could take the entire Bible at face value. It would be so much eaiser, but then we would be sacrificing goats on alters and stoning people to death.

I think you are really good for this site. See, I think its good to have the conservative view on things, because if we didnt everyone here would be preaching to the choir. LOL! 😆

I guess it all boils down to what Magsdee pointed out. Its all a matter of the heart, and the intentions there in. I feel no shame for the relationship that I am in, I have no conviction in my heart. I dont feel that my relationship is sinful.

The same reasons you are not persuing a relationship with another woman, are the reasons for why I am IN a relationship with another man. There are just to many questions and to many things that just dont add up for me to make a solid conclusion that I should not be in a same sex relationship.

For me it was a matter of my own happiness. I was not happy being with a woman. I was miserable. I was certainly happy not being alone. I am a relationship oriented type of person. I hate being alone, I love companionship. What made me truly happy was to being with a man, and not just any man mind you, the cutest man alive! LOL! 😆 …..But thats just my own personal bias. 😉