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just a couple of questions (is it really all a lie?)

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Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 4, 2011, 00:03

I’m still coming to term with all this, but I have also been asking myself questions such as,


1. I am just fooling myself in believing that homosexuality is not a sin or condemned by God?


2. Aren’t I just re-enforcing a lie and convincing myself of what I want to hear and believe by claiming that being gay is not sinful, its “normal” and God made me this way?


3. Does anyone here truly believe that we are born gay?


4.There are those like Mel White who claim that certain scriptures have been mistranslated although, that may very well be true, if it is, then whats to say the entire Bible hasn’t been mistranslated? or simply, how can believe anything in the Bible if there are mistranslated scriptures?


5. The Bible tells us to beware of full teachers and prophets. There are many who claim to have ‘The Truth’. Jesus warned us of such people when He said,“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.” There are those who say “gay theology” stems from false teaching.


6. I have read all the pro-gay interpretations of various scriptures, but so what, am I expected to believe that for 2000 years or whatever, Christians have been wrong? That suddenly, some have been enlightened to the “truth of the Bible” and have a clear understanding of “what the Bible really says about homosexuality” ? and what I have been lead to believed for 40 years is all wrong?


Finally, where in hell do I go from here?



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 4, 2011, 08:54

Hi Brunski


I recognise all these questions and the struggle in sitting with them.. Thankfully I no longer ask them but I still remember the angst they caused. I suspect a lot of others here can relate too.


Going to bible college for a brief period was one of the best things I did because it gave me the framework to look at scriptures more objectively and read them in context. I was warned before going however that it might test my faith because I would suddenly recognise things from the pulpit that were said with ‘poetic licence’ or that were just plain inaccurate. And it did make me aware of the many interpretations of the bible but it didn’t make me like the bible less. If anything it strengthened me and made me more curious. I believe there is truth in the bible. However we have to work much harder to find it than I was led to believe while attending pentecostal churches.


My personal belief is that a lot of people are born gay, some are influenced by experience and some are a combination of nature and nurture. Others here might not agree with that and that’s OK. I don’t have all the answers and this is my best guess on the basis that everyone is different and we don’t arrive at things in the same way. I know some people that knew they were gay from a very young age (like preschool) and others like myself who became aware of being bisexual later in life. In my case I believe the genetics were there lying dormant and then I became aware of my inclinations when in an environment that facilitated me to be more aware.


There’s a lot we don’t know about the bible and never will know because much has been lost to antiquity. I have also read some of the pro gay material and cringe. Anything that is highly emotional and not based on sound argument or hermeneutic principles is less reliable to me. This goes for some of the pro gay material as well as the anti gay stuff. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality but he said a lot about loving each other and gave many examples of reaching out to those on the fringes of society. The old testament also demonstrates beautiful ‘understories’ of reaching out to those in minorities or the underprivileged. I came to decide that this was more important than the debate on homosexuality. I figured that if Jesus never said anything about the subject, maybe it wasn’t as important as the other things such as loving each other..


Blessings,


Ann Maree



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
August 4, 2011, 12:18

Hi Brunski,


I’ll give answering your questions a shot, but as I do it might be helpful to know where I’m coming from. I’m a straight, married with children, ordained minister in the Baptist church. So, I have no personal reason to justify homosexuality or anything like that – this is all part of my journey with the LGBT community and learning more about the truth of God.


1. First off, the Bible condemns a whole lot of homosexual acts. It also condemns a whole lot of heterosexual acts. Any sexual activity that is violent, abusive, adulterous, promiscuous or part of idol worship is called sin. As it should be. However, nowhere does the bible speak of a homosexual orientation being a sin. It doesn’t speak of sexual orientation at all. Orientation is a far more recent discovery. I try and think of it as being left or right handed – one is more common than the other, but neither is wrong or sinful. It’s a state of being. Same with being gay.


2. If by normal you mean ‘majority’, then yes, being gay is not normal. That is, straight people form the majority of our population. But minorities are not wrong or sinful. They are simply minorities. Being an ordained minister is not normal either!!


3. Why are some people gay and some people straight? I’ve read as much as I possibly can on this and spoken to many many people. At the end of the day I can only say “I don’t know”. I have two sons, born two years apart. They’ve grown up in the same environment, with the same love and care. One if left handed and one is right handed. Both my wife and I are right handed. Was my son born left handed? I don’t know!!! He just is.


This has been my conclusion with homosexuality too. There does seem to be a biological component, as well as an environmental factor. There is an element of choice, but not about the orientation itself – moreso what you do with it. While mental health experts, scientitsts and church bodies all seem to be in conflict, I find myself falling back on what I can know for sure. Some people are gay and they didn’t chose it. They just are. I also believe that we are all created in the image of God, of inherent worth and value. You are you, and God loves you like that.


4. Sadly the translation of the Bible has sometimes fallen under political influence rather than the influence of the Spirit. But I think you’ll find that most scholars that value honesty and integrity, will agree that the Bible doesn’t speak to homosexual orientation or committed same sex relationships. They still might oppose gay rights, but they won’t base their arguments on those passages from scripture. Put in their proper context, those passages simply talk about a different thing to what we are talking about. See my answer to question 1. The burden on all of us is to continue to seek truth, and to do that together. Genuine debate is ok if it leads us forward in our journeys. I think there is still truth to be discovered from scripture – and that’s exciting!


5. Be discerning on who you listen to and what you read. By all means read/listen to people that teach things that resonate with you, but also listen to those that have a different viewpoint. This is part of discerning the truth. Ask lots of questions (happy to be a sounding board if you need it), poke, prod, delve and discover. This is the journey that God is taking you on. You’ll read some things that make you throw the book acorss the room. You read some other things that seems like plain common sense. You’ll read other things that play on your mind and you’ll wrestle with for months. This is healthy and is a sign of a growing and maturing faith.


6. Don’t assume that the the interpretations we have been handed have been held by Christian people all through history. The literal interpretation of the creation story has only been around 100 years or so, but the fundamentalists like to tell us that this is how it’s always been read. they neglect to tell us that the Hebrew people never believed in a literal reading of the Genesis creation account…


The people of God have a pretty good history of getting it wrong. During the crusades we slaughtered people in the streets, letting God decide whether they should go to heaven or hell. During the inquisition, we stifled free thinking and executed anyone that didn’t agree with our doctrine. We fight over the smallest things and resolve the conflicts by starting new denominations. We bomb the crap out of other countries justifying it by invoking God’s blessing. We’ve treated women as objects to be owned by men, black people as animals and muslims as the spawn of Satan.


I don’t think you should find it too difficult to belive we have got it wrong with homosexuality. I think it’s harder to believe that we’ve ever got anything right! Fortunately there’s this thing called grace.


Where to from here?


Well, keep walking the journey. Keep asking the questions and seeking the answers. Keep living a life of faith. And do all of that knowing that you are not alone. At the very least, we will walk with you. And together we will become what God has created us to be.


Hold on tight, it will get a bit rocky from time to time. But we will make it…



missmuppet
 
Joined in 2011
August 4, 2011, 14:09

I really appreciate this post everyone. 🙂



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 4, 2011, 19:11

Hi mrg


Love your work! 🙂


You said:


The people of God have a pretty good history of getting it wrong. During the crusades we slaughtered people in the streets, letting God decide whether they should go to heaven or hell. During the inquisition, we stifled free thinking and executed anyone that didn’t agree with our doctrine. We fight over the smallest things and resolve the conflicts by starting new denominations. We bomb the crap out of other countries justifying it by invoking God’s blessing. We’ve treated women as objects to be owned by men, black people as animals and muslims as the spawn of Satan.


I don’t think you should find it too difficult to believe we have got it wrong with homosexuality. I think it’s harder to believe that we’ve ever got anything right! Fortunately there’s this thing called grace.


How true! Your usual refreshing way of expressing this truth made me smile though. 🙂


You said:


5. Be discerning on who you listen to and what you read. By all means read/listen to people that teach things that resonate with you, but also listen to those that have a different viewpoint. This is part of discerning the truth. Ask lots of questions (happy to be a sounding board if you need it), poke, prod, delve and discover. This is the journey that God is taking you on. You’ll read some things that make you throw the book acorss the room. You read some other things that seems like plain common sense. You’ll read other things that play on your mind and you’ll wrestle with for months. This is healthy and is a sign of a growing and maturing faith.


Well said and couldn’t agree more. It can be uncomfortable wrestling with things but is a normal and healthy part of our journey. In a way I think truth is all the more precious when you have to find it in this way. It feels earned and tested rather than taken for granted. But then I do like a challenge.


The only small bit I didn’t agree on was where you say at the start that the bible condemns a lot of homosexual acts. Hmmm…I’m not so sure. I mean I can see that people have interpreted it in that way. Another way to look at it might be that scripture speaks to what’s behind the acts rather than the apparently homosexual nature of the acts. So for instance the text might really be about idolatry. Another theory is that in the old testament passage where it says that men should not lie with men, the context for this might have been a decree given at the time about the need to grow the population (handy for wars to have strength in numbers) and so this meant that male-female sex was encouraged for reproductive purposes rather than allowing sperm to be ‘wasted’ as in male to male sex. Have you heard of that interpretation? Even if this is not true, this example shows how easily people can create other meanings because the original context is missing or unknown.


Anyway, thanks mrg for taking the time to put together such a thoughtful and thorough response. 🙂


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 5, 2011, 13:14

Thanks mrg and others who joined in, your first comment has me a little puzzled.


1. “First off, the Bible condemns a whole lot of homosexual acts” and when first looking at the Bible that is certainly what appears to be the case. But on a more personal view, does that mean that, in order to follow the Word of God we must not only accept that God condemns homosexual acts and secondly, if we do accept that to be the case, then wouldn’t the next logical step if you wish to follow what the Bible says, to not indulge in homosexual acts if they are condemned by God?


You go on to say “Any sexual activity that is violent, abusive, adulterous, promiscuous or part of idol worship is called sin. As it should be”. Are you referring to only those homosexual acts that are violent, abusive, adulterous, promiscuous or part of idol worship, are condemned by God, or simply the act of homosexuality which is non-violent, abusive … ?


2. I can accept that the Bible doesn’t speak of homosexual orientation or any sexual orientation, there is no denying that. And nor do I think the fact that homosexuality is less common then heterosexuality makes any difference whatsoever! I guess one could say, as you appear to have said, that homosexual activity is what is regarded as sin per say. Hence, does this mean as some believe, that we who are gay, should remain celibate period! I would wish that upon anyone!


3. You said “There does seem to be a biological component, as well as an environmental factor. There is an element of choice, but not about the orientation itself – moreso what you do with it”. I agree to some degree, my view is that some people are biologically more likely to become gay because of certain genes or other biological factors. I am don’t believe that we born gay per say, but our homosexuality can develop as we grow due to certain biological aspects and more so, environmental and parental factors and perhaps even health factors. The whole issue of choice is also very controversial, to some degree there is an element of choice involved, as we choose to either have sex with someone of the same sex or we dont! We choose whether we engage in homosexual activity, just as a heterosexual chooses to engage in heterosexual sexual activity. So perhaps, in actual fact it is a choice after all, not our sexual orientation but our sexual acts.


Finally, your right in saying that we haven’t always got it right when it comes to interpreting what the Bible says. Obviously there was a time when people believed that the Bible justified slavery, subjugation of women and other things we now consider wrong. And much of gay theology would say that, if Christians were wrong about those things, then who is to say that they are also wrong about homosexuality? That’s certainly a good question and one that I have heard often and it made sense to me. But one response that Joe Dallas of Exodus gives to this question is, “Those who justified slavery by biblical passages misread the passages, quite likely to suit their own prejudice. Nowhere does the Bible commend slavery; rather, it acknowledges its existence”. I never thought of that. He also responds to the suggestion that the writers of the Bible knew nothing about homosexuality or loving, committed same sex relationships. All they knew was of homosexuality per say, was that which was practised in temple prostitution or idolatrous ceremonies. Another claim that I have heard many times and even used. But Joe’s response is this “Even if it could be proven that there was no such thing as committed homosexual relationships in the Bible, Biblical authors such as Daniel, David and Ezekiel were prophetically inspired to write about things that were to exist that were to exist in the future as well as that which did exist at the time of their writings. Surely, if homosexuality was legitimate and natural, there would have been some reference to homosexual relationships in the future, not the present. Again, he makes a good counter argument.


And also the suggestion that Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, is not legitimate because just because it appears that he said nothing about homosexuality during his earthly ministry, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he didn’t actually say nothing, but only that, we have no record of His doing so. And there are several serious offences that Jesus doesn’t appear to mention, Child molestation, rape, spouse abuse … yet we wouldn’t assume that any of these were acceptable, simply because of their omission from Christ’s teachings! Again its a powerful counter response, to a claim that is often made by pro-gay Christians. I could go on forever, but wont. But I am interested to see what you and others thing of these responses by Mr Dallas.



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 5, 2011, 18:17

This is an interesting discussion… I hope it continues.


The left/right handedness is a different way to look at it. My husband and I are both right-handed, but two of our children are left-handed and one is ambidextrous – interesting. Its just the way you are, and left-handedness was once frowned upon, and lefties were forced to change. They could use their right hand, but hey, they were still left-handed people. Sounds a little familiar, doesn’t it?


The fact that Jesus was never recorded as having mentioned anything along the lines of same sex relationships is very relevant. He may not have mentioned rape or spousal abuse either, but we know those are harmful and hurt people. They show disrespect and are unloving, which we know are against what Jesus said and stood for. Being of a homosexual orientation is not something that harms others or is unloving. If He needed to clarify that I’m sure He would’ve mentioned it. One of His disciples seemed to have a close and intimate relationship with Jesus. Not forgetting David and Jonathon either.


I still have questions, as a straight Christian, but when I look at Jesus they seem to be unnecessary, because I see that He came to set us free from sins and prejudices and doubts; from segregation and discrimination. There is neither male nor female in the Spirit, but we are all one. So really, sexual orientation is not a big deal in this light. Its about a relationship with Love Himself. He has done away with sin, and we are free to live in His grace and love, just as we are, no matter who we are.


This doesn’t negate your questions – and I’m certain you will find the answers, as you keep searching.

Freedom 2 b(e) is a great place to find answers.

Blessings and love to you on your journey.



Mother Hen
 
Joined in 2011
August 5, 2011, 21:22

From my reading of stories on this forum and from my understanding of my son’s struggles many have had similar questions and struggles as you. I think this post will be of benefit and interest to a lot of people.


I’m not going to get into a scriptural debate I just want to say that there are many different beliefs and interpretations of the bible that people can back up by scripture, the fact we have so many different religions all claiming to believe in the same God and follow the same bible is proof of that.


I’ve belonged to churches that many would consider a cult as I do now, but they and I could back up our beliefs by scripture and hold our own in any scriptural debate. The point is I think anyone could back up any view and belief by scripture. Many horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity. The problem with asking these type of questions is you will get a pro or con answers depending on who you ask and each will have valid points and scriptures to back up their views. It’s great to ask questions but in the end you and you alone have to make up you own mind and find your own answers. I do believe though asking questions is part of that process.


Now I want to answer as a mother of a gay son. I have 2 sons they were both brought up the same way, with the same christian beliefs, one is married and one is gay. The one that is gay, felt he was gay at a fairly young age. As his mother I am offended and annoyed at suggestions that it was due in anyway to his upbringing. People who play that game just want someone to blame instead of facing facts and acknowledge that for reasons yet unknown some people are born gay. Just as some are born left handed and others right. When we look at nature and the animal kingdom we can see same sex attractions and sexual activity why do we think mankind is so different.


It’s been 7 mths since our son told us he was Gay, we never ever said to him are you sure. We knew our son, we knew the beliefs he had held. He told us of his struggles, how he prayed and prayed to God to change him. So we believed him without question and believed this was not a choice for him. My answer to any person who would question whether being Gay is ok in the eyes of God or not is “well if it so wrong why didn’t God change him” he had a willing vessel that so desperately wanted to change and not be Gay. I can’t nor can any one else say with 100 % certainty what the actual interpretation of the scriptures are. But I can say with 100% certainty that my son didn’t have a choice, he was born Gay.


I also believe whether you are gay or straight we all want to be loved. We all want the embrace and touch of the one we love. My husband and I have a wonderful loving, supporting relationship. My husband is my best friend, my soul mate. The love we have for each other is hard to express in words, anyone who knows us can see we are very much in love. It is the kind of relationship and love we want for both our children. How can people say that being gay is an orientation, and is not a choice and not a sin but to be involved in a sexual, loving, committed relationship is. What right do we, straight, gay or anyone else have to withhold such a love from them, one we (straight people) have the freedom to enjoy ourselves. To be born Gay and have no choice in that and then to be told you have to spend your life alone and single and not enjoy the love and embrace of another human being is cruel.


Keep praying, keep asking questions, seeking answers and most of all trust your heart. Our head can be swayed by one view and another, but in the end you will know what is true and right for you. It seems we all go through a time of confusion when making big decisions and changes in our lives, especially if those changes are our beliefs we have held for so long, it is unfortunately part of the process. However you will come out the other end more confident and comfortable in who you are.


God bless and good luck in your searching, I have been praying for you.



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 5, 2011, 21:26

Just an extra thought that came to me. When we come to Jesus there are no special requirements. We come just as we are and He accepts us, forgives us and makes us righteous. It doesn’t depend on us, or our works or our trying to be good enough. Everyone comes to Him this way.


Okay, once we are in His family, we are His business. Whatever we do is between Him and us. No one can tell you how to live your life. You are washed and completely sinless. Righteous in His eyes. He delights in you.


You are who you are. If you were meant to be different He would make that happen. If He doesn’t, then embrace who you are. You are loved.


And being of a certain sexual orientation is never a sin.

You are loved, and you are okay 🙂



Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 5, 2011, 22:16

Thanks for your reply Suzee and Mother Hen,


I will ended keep praying, keep asking and keep seeking and I know I will get there in the end and reach the light at the end of the tunnel, I just hope I get there before I am 80 plus or worse, on my death bed :~ Thank you for your prayers. Its frustrating to come so close to understand and accepting only to find myself back to where I was & unable to totally accept and reconcile my sexuality with my faith.


God bless you both, Brunski


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