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just a couple of questions (is it really all a lie?)

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Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 7, 2011, 23:57

Hi Suzie, David, Anne-Marie and anyone else who replied, thanks so much for all your responses, I am feeling better being able to ask questions, unfortunately I dont always get the answer I am hoping for, but I guess we never do.


Yes Anne Marie I really don’t think there is any evidence to say that eunuchs were gay, but as you say, perhaps some were, but to say that they were gay period as pro-gay theology suggests, is just plain wrong. Its like the belief that Jonathan and David were gay, so too Naomi and Ruth (more pro-gay theology) I also think is wrong. But thats just my opinion, I know there is something about Jonathan kissing David or the other way around, and that they had a close relationship, but if we base that someone is gay purely on that, then again, there would be many, many more gays around! The mere fact that they kissed doesn’t make them gay, men kissing men is typical Middle Eastern behavior and in no way indicates a homosexual relationship. Men kissing men is also common in European cultures.


Scripture speaks in glowing terms of Jonathan and David’s loving intimacy, exchanging clothing, embracing, weeping together, hugging and kissing each other. But scripture does not directly state that Jonathan and David enjoyed a romantic, sexual relationship, so we cant really say as Many pro-gay theologian suggest that there were the “first same sex couple” and proof of same sex relationship in Biblical times” I for one dont believe they were gay.


“In relation to David’s experiences, I think he’s referring to temperature probes that detected a rise in temperature in response to homoerotic stimuli. In other words, there were objective tests that measured the body’s responses and these showed a biological or unconscious link despite attempts to consciously condition someone away from being gay via the use of shock therapy” – in hindsight, and re reading his post, I see what he means when he talks about having medical proof that he is gay. Still not convinced that this would constitute medical proof, but anyway …


I know that God loves me, he sent his son to die in my place and through him I have forgiveness and redemption, but still I continue to struggle with my sexuality, I guess being raised a catholic didn’t help and then being involved in more charismatic protestant churches also didn’t make things easier. Then there is the whole European French/Italian background that also doesn’t help matters, anyway, I guess I still have more soul searching to do … more questions to ask …



jamesn
 
Joined in 2009
August 8, 2011, 21:03

Brunski


There is some evidence that suggests some eunuchs were gay. The book of Isaiah says there are male and female eunuchs? Other non Bible but historic tests talks about eunuchs masturbating? Think there is a lot more here than we think?


Hi Suzie, David, Anne-Marie and anyone else who replied, thanks so much for all your responses, I am feeling better being able to ask questions, unfortunately I dont always get the answer I am hoping for, but I guess we never do.


Yes Anne Marie I really don’t think there is any evidence to say that eunuchs were gay, but as you say, perhaps some were, but to say that they were gay period as pro-gay theology suggests, is just plain wrong. Its like the belief that Jonathan and David were gay, so too Naomi and Ruth (more pro-gay theology) I also think is wrong. But thats just my opinion, I know there is something about Jonathan kissing David or the other way around, and that they had a close relationship, but if we base that someone is gay purely on that, then again, there would be many, many more gays around! The mere fact that they kissed doesn’t make them gay, men kissing men is typical Middle Eastern behavior and in no way indicates a homosexual relationship. Men kissing men is also common in European cultures.


Scripture speaks in glowing terms of Jonathan and David’s loving intimacy, exchanging clothing, embracing, weeping together, hugging and kissing each other. But scripture does not directly state that Jonathan and David enjoyed a romantic, sexual relationship, so we cant really say as Many pro-gay theologian suggest that there were the “first same sex couple” and proof of same sex relationship in Biblical times” I for one dont believe they were gay.


“In relation to David’s experiences, I think he’s referring to temperature probes that detected a rise in temperature in response to homoerotic stimuli. In other words, there were objective tests that measured the body’s responses and these showed a biological or unconscious link despite attempts to consciously condition someone away from being gay via the use of shock therapy” – in hindsight, and re reading his post, I see what he means when he talks about having medical proof that he is gay. Still not convinced that this would constitute medical proof, but anyway …


I know that God loves me, he sent his son to die in my place and through him I have forgiveness and redemption, but still I continue to struggle with my sexuality, I guess being raised a catholic didn’t help and then being involved in more charismatic protestant churches also didn’t make things easier. Then there is the whole European French/Italian background that also doesn’t help matters, anyway, I guess I still have more soul searching to do … more questions to ask …



Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 8, 2011, 22:12

Jamesn wrote


“There is some evidence that suggests some eunuchs were gay. The book of Isaiah says there are male and female eunuchs? Other non Bible but historic tests talks about eunuchs masturbating? Think there is a lot more here than we think?”


Yes, you are probably right, there may very well be a lot more than we think when it comes to Eunuchs, I am sure there were both male and female eunuchs, and most likely some did masturbate, but that doesn’t make them gay. I grant you that not all eunuchs were castrated, some simply born with no genitalia, as is the case today, although very rare, and other simply impotent or who unable to procreate,but I don’t think there is any real evidence to say that eunuchs were gay.


I dont know why, but I have so much trouble with “gay theology” and yet, I have so much trouble with being gay and Christian how does that work?



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 9, 2011, 09:43

Brunski,


Its great that you’re asking all these questions. Keep on asking until you’re satisfied. No one can tell you what to believe – you need to come to that in your heart yourself.


I hope you are also asking God what he thinks and how he sees you?


My guess is that he sees you just as he sees anyone else – straight or gay – as the one he loves. If you are his, you’ve been forgiven for everything you’ve ever done or ever will do. You are a new creation, and you’ve moved from darkness to light. You are the one who Jesus loves, the same as everyone else. He loves, accepts and embraces you – as you are now.


These may only be words at the moment, and it may be hard to believe this as truth right now. That’s okay. I pray that God will show you how loved you are, and that you can be a gay christian. I do know people who are lesbians and gays, and are happy christians; knowing they are loved and accepted as they are, and God’s not asking them to change. They know they don’t need fixing or healing. They have studied the “clobber” scriptures people most often use against homosexuality, and know what they really mean and what they don’t mean. These scriptures have been misused and misinterpreted without the user knowing the true meaning behind them.


So keep on searching and asking. You will find out what you need to know.


From a straight christian’s perspective, I can say with all my heart – God loves you, and so do I.



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 9, 2011, 11:01

Hi Brunski


You wrote:


I dont know why, but I have so much trouble with “gay theology” and yet, I have so much trouble with being gay and Christian how does that work?


If you’ve read what I have, I suspect you have the same trouble with it that I do because it’s highly emotional and full of big holes. There are a lot of great leaps made on the basis of flimsy arguments that simply don’t hold up. The stuff isn’t intelligently written or properly examined and I’m afraid I can’t suffer it. I’ve seen the same with antigay arguments too. *sigh*


I also am not aware of a link between masturbation and a person’s sexual orientation and agree that masturbation doesn’t prove that someone is gay.


The fact that you have trouble with being gay and Christian is normal. I think most of us have also experienced a dilemma with integrating the two harmoniously. And it’s not surprising when the LGBTI community has been rejected and shunned by churches for years. I mean given that and the difficulty finding the truth in scripture on the subject, I’d be surprised if you didn’t struggle with this area!


I’ve found it enormously encouraging knowing that there are those like Suzee and others here and beyond our site who are looking at and living the broader spiritual truths of love and goodness. All they see and communicate is love and that’s what is often forgotten in these debates. I really don’t think God cares much for theology/doctrine. Don’t get me wrong, I think learning is wonderful and very important but learning in a way that’s inclusive and open hearted and the type that incorporates experience and real people. Sometimes the people arguing for their so-called ‘righteousness’ are looking at the letter of the law (and their interpretation of it) and forgetting that people can’t be so easily categorised as that. They may lose sight of their fellow humans they are arguing with and to me that’s a mistake. I believe the bible was always meant to be a dynamic document that was flexible to peoples’ changing needs. I mean, even in the old testament, laws were changed to accomodate those who were disadvantaged and suffering, especially when the laws made life harder than it already was. Mercy was considered greater than justice. The law, when used well, is compassionate and enables people to live and flourish rather than causing restrictions. And this kind of love in action is the only truth I’m really interested in.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Brunski
 
Joined in 2005
August 9, 2011, 20:59

Your right Suzzee,

I know that God loves me and yes, I am a new creation and have moved from darkness into light. I remember a pastor telling me that I am “obviously not” a believer because if I was I would truly be a new creation and in his mind, that means that I would no longer be gay, because my old nature would be crucified at the Cross of Jesus and by His wounds I am healed! my sexuality, my sinful gay nature should be and would be, if I was a “true believer” delivered, I and set free from the sin of homosexuality! If I was a “real Christian” my old sinful gay nature (darkness) would have moved into the light and I should be straight!

I remember asking myself countless times, if I am a new creation, then why the hell am I still gay? I dont know the answer to that, guess we are still on a learning curb


God loves me, this I know, but he obviously hates my (our) sins and that’s the question, is homosexuality a sin? if it is, then by default, that means God hates me (and all homosexuals) :O



Mother Hen
 
Joined in 2011
August 9, 2011, 21:33

God loves me, this I know, but he obviously hates my (our) sins and that’s the question, is homosexuality a sin? if it is, then by default, that means God hates me (and all homosexuals) :O


Have to disagree with you here Brunski, Yes God hates sin but he sent his son to die for the sinner because HE LOVES us, the sinners. Just because you dislike someone actions doesn’t mean you hate them. For example as a mother we love our children but they are not always angles 0:) , they might be naughty some times, and I might not like what they did but I do not cease to love then and certainly do not hate them. Of course my children are now all grown up and are absolutely wonderful young men, :bigsmile:



Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 9, 2011, 22:33

Hi Brunski


I agree with Mother Hen. God is love and the greatest message of the bible is love shown through Jesus. He extended his love to all kinds of people including the most disenfranchised and marginalised people in society. Even if homosexuality is a sin, the bible shows us that God reaches out to ‘sinners’ and doesn’t shun them.


The other thing to consider is that we are more than our orientations or ‘sins’ and God of course knows that. He looks at our hearts and overflows with love for us.


Blessings,


Ann Maree



Suzee
 
Joined in 2011
August 10, 2011, 11:14

Dear Brunski,


THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD EVER DO THAT WOULD MAKE GOD LOVE YOU LESS! … NOTHING.


That just isn’t possible.


You being gay is not a sin.


You and I both, are not sinners in God’s eyes. We are righteous, by his grace. No matter what we do we are not sinners in God’s eyes, because we have been made righteous, pure and holy by Jesus. This isn’t something that chops and changes depending on our conduct. It is our permanent state of being, because of where we are positioned…in Christ.


Please stop beating yourself up and thinking God hates you or that he hates what you do, or who you are. He isn’t capable of that. He has been wrongly accused of this but its not in His nature to be this way towards his children. To think this is to doubt his love. To think this shows you don’t really know him.

But I believe you do know him deep down in your heart. You do know that he loves you unconditionally. Never mind what people have said to you…listen to what’s in your heart, Brunski.



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 17:47

Lot’s of good stuff in this post!


I think I worded part of my fist post awkwardly. It might be better to say that many same-sex “acts” are condemened in the Bible. I doubt very much whether it was gay/lesbian people that were committing them though. I don’t think I’ve met anybody that will say that the entire townshhips of Sodom and Gomorrah were inhabited by gay people and only gay people! No, it’s heterosexual people using same-sex acts to oppress and violate others.


As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn’t say a single thing about a homosexaul orientation. Thus, it says nothing about homosexuals as people. So anybody who says that homosexuals are sinners because of their sexual orientation are at best wrong and at worst, full of crap.


As a side note, I think it’s so incredibly hypocritical for the church to spread the sterotype of homosexuals being sexually promiscuous but then lobbying against them getting married. That’s a debate for another day.


Are you a sinner? Of course you are! But not becasue you’re gay. You’re a sinner becasue you are human. Just like me. In fact, I reckon I’m probably better at sinning than you!! One of the few things I know how to do really well! But using the biblical language, we have been forgiven and washed clean. The question we ask ourselves now is, “What does it mean for us to be followers of Jesus?”


I’ll do my best to help you find answers to that question…


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