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just a couple of questions (is it really all a lie?)

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mrg
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 18:06

A couple of other things…


If masturbation makes you gay, then every bloke I’ve spoken to in my church is gay!!! :bigsmile:


In Hebrew thought, any sexual activity that diodn’t lead to babies was considered wrong. This is why Onan is condemned

in the Old Testament for spilling his semen on the ground. I think this Hebrew thinking is at the heart of why many chruches teach that masturbation is wrong and will make your willy fall off. No doubt, a lot of the acts associated with masturbation (porn etc) are unhealthy, but masturbation has it’s place.


I’ve read a bit of queer theology too and like Ann Maree, can see some big holes. I think it’s better to read “Liberation Theology” instead – it’s written from the perspective of people who have been opressed and focuses on the freedom found in Christ. Robert McAfee Brown has written a book called “Liberation Theology: An Introductory Guide” which might be a good place to start, while Gustavo Gutierrez has written THE book on the topic called, “A Theology of Liberation”.


Keep asking the questions Brunski – it’s good for all of us…

joshua thomas
 
Joined in 2011
August 10, 2011, 20:22

Hey mate I’m I’m the same boat as you it sounds.

We must keep asking god for the answers, he won’t let you down.I’ll be praying for both of us man

RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 20:46

Querido Familia,


A few of you have brought up “gay theology” vs “liberation theology”. Personally, I have my issues with those schools of thought as well. Main problem? The same as with dealing with homophobes: the misinterpretation of Scripture for personal/political reason. For example, the attempts to show certain Biblical figures as being homosexual is misguided and flies in the face of anthropology as well as Scriptural Studies (ie, Jonathan and David exhibit behaviors that were and still are very common in Middle Eastern culture. Men embracing each other, weeping together is actually seen as a sign of trust and is encouraged).


I find that many Liberation theologians attempt to do exactly what they accuse their Conservative counterparts of doing: twisting the Word in the service of a political agenda (in this case, a Liberal one). Sorry folks, the Bible cannot relate to human political systems (certainly not 21st century Euro-American ruling systems). Nor was it meant to. It transcends human limitations and human short sightedness. Jesus , for example, would not find many friends on either side of the political spectrum for numerous reasons . He rejected human political order as merely children playing dress-up, made clear to Pontius Pilate (John 18:36) that his kingdom was not of this world and that even Pilate, an official of the most powerful empire the world had known up until that time, had no true power.


Theology is about transcending the human, to become something more. To aid others beyond borders. To forgive those who smash our bones and take our lives. To stand against corruption and evil, from whichever direction it may come. To be more than mortal. To grasp hold of our identity as sons and daughters of the Creator.

For me, theology should have no agenda other than the truth and the Word should speak for itself as is the case when one studies it closely.


Yours in Christ,

Raul

RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 20:47

Querido Brunski,


1. It is not a sin. It is a natural state that one is born with, no different from heterosexuality. The Bible has never condemned homosexuality or homosexuals in any way shape or form. God created you this way and loves you just as you are.


2. No, you are not reinforcing a lie. You are grasping for the truth.


3. Yes, humans are born gay and straight, brown eyes and blue, left and right handed. This is attested to by both psychological and biological factors observed in countless studies and experiments.


4. Not mistranslated. Misunderstood or perhaps even purposely misinterpreted by some (such as Fred Phelps). The Word is good. It is human weakness that is the problem.


5. A false teacher is detected by their fruits. If one studies the Word earnestly, and lives justly, seeking and obeying God, than it is likely that this person is true in the Lord and is a righteous teacher.


6. Not really. For several centuries since it’s inception, the Church was gay affirming (even to the point of gay marriages and openly gay leaders as shown by the record of Constantius). However, around the 4th century numerous political powder kegs exploded around the empire. One of these, was the Arian Heresy. Secular leaders (seeing an opportunity to grasp power) pressured church authorities into placing the blame on the many powerful eunuchs (the ancient word for “homosexual” and not just a “Castrati” ) both in the clergy and in the political arena, in order to legitimize their power grab. Many of the church leaders, angered by rampant heresy, afraid of chaos, and being weak-willed and greedy agreed. This is the source of the problem: a group of people used by a political elite to gain influence and as scapegoats. Hence why this problem repeats itself in even the most non-religious of places and times (France during the French Revolution, Maoist China, The Soviet Union, etc).


As for where you go from here? Let the Holy Spirit guide you. Open your heart to God and open your soul to his mercy.


Yours in Christ,


Raul

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 10, 2011, 21:08

Hi Raul


Thanks for your insights. I like the points you’ve made. And I didn’t know that the church was once gay affirming. Wow – so there you go. 🙂


I agree with what you say about some liberation theology too. I’m all for hermeneutical and anthropological approaches and consciously trying to put any bias aside, as much as is humanly possible, that is, in the pursuit of truth. Even if someone has different views to me, I respect them when they approach scriptures in an intelligent and thorough way.


Apart from close study of the bible that includes looking at historical and cultural contexts, I think it’s helpful if we have a healthy tolerance for the unknown since much of biblical antiquity is lost to us and we will never find the answers in this lifetime. I think if people can sit comfortably with gaps in their knowledge, they are perhaps less likely to try grasping at straws to suit an underlying agenda. Just a theory of mine anyway. And as you point out, the middle eastern way of life is so different to our western lifestyles that our minds have difficulty comprehending what that’s like in modern times let alone ancient ones.


Here’s a question for you about Jonathan and David. I think from memory they hugged after disrobing. Do you know if that’s a common thing for middle eastern men to do and not intended as sexual?


It’s good to hear from you again. Raul.


Blessings,


Ann Maree

RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 21:18

Querido Ann,


Good to see you again as well! How are you, my precious sister?


“Here’s a question for you about Jonathan and David. I think from memory they hugged after disrobing. Do you know if that’s a common thing for middle eastern men to do and not intended as sexual? “


Given that a common thread across many Middle Eastern cultures involves men bathing each other, grappling in combat sports nude, etc , hugging is hardly sexual. It would have been seen as simply an act of trust between men who were like brothers. If you want to see an example of all this, just take a look at Turkish Wrestling, for a modern example.


Yours in Christ,


Raul

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 10, 2011, 21:34

Hi Raul


Nude wrestling and bathing each other? 😀 hehe Really? And not sexual??


Wow!


So it sounds like you’re saying that even if David and Jonathan were naked while hugging, kissing and crying together, this might not have been sexual.


Thanks for this post and for your kind wishes. 🙂 I am very well thanks, Raul. And you?


Blessings,


Ann Maree



RaulG
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 21:54

Querido Ann,


Nude wrestling and bathing each other? Laughing out loud hehe Really? And not sexual??


Wow!



So it sounds like you’re saying that even if David and Jonathan were naked while hugging, kissing and crying together, this might not have been sexual.


Precisely. What would be considered sexual in one culture, would simply be good manners in another. For example, the Euro-American practice of kissing members of the opposite gender on the cheek is considered extremely sexual in numerous Middle Eastern cultures and is a good way to end up eating a knuckle sandwich.


Yours in Christ,


Raul

Ann Maree
 
Joined in 2008
August 10, 2011, 21:59

It’s interesting isn’t it? I remember being at a church conference many years ago in Malaysia. I sat behind 2 young boys who spent a lot of time whispering into each others’ ears. Each of their lips were touching the other’s ears and yet it was a very innocent, non sexual thing but not what you’d see boys do in Australian culture. I was bemused and fascinated by that. I also noticed how the men at church loved to dance and this was refreshing at a time when hetero men in Australia wouldn’t dance for fear of being thought of as girly.



mrg
 
Joined in 2010
August 10, 2011, 22:17

Ok you two – that’s enough talk about naked Turkish wrestling. The kids are still awake for goodness sake!!!! :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile:


Coming back to our discussion about theology, ALL theology is done in a particular time and context, and simply can’t be done in a way that transcends those differences.


Those thinkers that write from places of oppression are most definitely going to have a different perspective than those of us in our comfy western lifestyles. We (rightly or wrongly) tend to identify with Jesus in the gospel stories, taking his lead to reach out. Those in places of oppression on the other hand, tend to identify with those on the fringe in the gospel stories and hold on to the image of Jesus reaching out to them to set them free. Yes, we might read scripture differently, but we have to ask ourselves why.


Theology takes time to develop too. Compare the book of James to the book of Romans in the New Testament. James was written much earlier than Romans, and thus has a far less well developed theology. It’s a far more practical book. In Romans however, the early church, and Paul, have had a bit more time to think things through and articulate the message of Jesus in a new way.


Liberation theology is making some good contributions to our collective thought and has been around long enough to develop some maturity. I think queer theology is still finding it’s feet – it will learn to let go of some of its biases and make some genuine contributions in the year to come.


ANY theology, however, must take the unchanging things of God and make then real and relevant in our changing times. Thus, theology is a never ending task that we all need to engage in. But it should never distract us from the simply call to love God with our whole being and love our neighbour as ourself.


Finally, how many rounds are their in a match of naked Turkish wrestling? Just curious… :p


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