Hi Brunski

I was an ordained Baptist Pastor, and I was born gay and that has been proven medically in my case. I only wanted men teachers in Grade 2 and I put on such a tantrum about it, I got them every year after that through primary school.

In 1970s being gay was considered a mental illness and I was referred to a psychiatrist who was also President of the Baptist Church in Qld. He organized for me to have electronic shock therapy. Though a bit private, it is really important. They put a wire ring that measured temperature changes on your private parts and showed you about 1000 pictures of men and 1000 of women in all sorts of situations. There isn’t anything anyone can do to influence the outcome of those tests. When my body temperature rose when I saw the pictures of men, which is perfectly natural for me, the machine delivered fairly high voltages of electricity through wires that were also attached to punish me for being gay with the expectation that my orientation would be changed from gay to straight. The needle of the doctor’s machine never recorded a single thing when I saw all those pictures of nude women. I asked the doctor how many had had their sexual orientation changed through that or any method and he said (and I quote) “NONE”. I now consider that aversion therapy was considered a legitimate form of abuse. It caused a tremendous amount of damage.

Being gay is not a matter of choice and it can’t be changed. A significant time for me was studying Matt 19:12. Eunuchs are gays in scripture. You may like to study this in Esther etc when eunuchs were put in charge of the king’s harem as the women would be safe when guarded by them. Jesus said “For some are eunchs because they were born that way…the one who can accept it should accept it.” So I did.

I also have checked the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures extensively and I am absolutely convinced the scriptures do not condemn homosexuality, provided that the person has not known the Lord and rejected him, worshipped idols and when both of those are true, Paul in Rom 1 talks about those who have had a heterosexual orientation at some point, abandoned that to practice homosexuality. Paul says NOTHING about those who were born with a homosexual orientation and abandoned THAT to TRY to practice hetrosexuality which is precisely what I have been trying to do for the last 40 years. A straight marriage DEFINITELY does not change a thing. I also made a big mistake when I adopted the church’s views of homosexuality as my view of myself. That caused many years of self hatred and loathing.

There are two things against nature in the Bible. One is as above IN CONTEXT, the other is men with long hair in 1 Cor 11:14. However the WHOLE Point of Rom 1 is Rom 2:1 which says, “You therefore have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else.”

I wrote a paper on this and in the first month 350 gays said they planned to commit suicide over this and decided against it. Many famililies had been reunited.

In a word, I believe we should interpret all scripture through the lens of Jesus.

The God who created us does not then turn around and condemn us for creating us the way he did.

Some people are born gay and I am one of them and that is just fine. I am proud to be gay and I enjoy being gay very much, but I am not sexually active in order to keep my vows to my wife. However I am a strong supporter of gay marriage.

Thanks David and Michelle,

David, Im sorry to hear about what you went through with the aversion therapy, I can’t even begin to imagine what that would have been liked or what you went through mentally. You said that you were born gay and it was medically proven in your case. May I ask how? Since when was there a way of proving whether someone is born gay or not?

Only wanting men teachers in Grade 2 and putting on such a tantrum about it, just to get them year after that through primary school, doesn’t prove you are gay! If that were the case there would be a hell of a lot more gay people around then! My personal view is that we are not born gay (and perhaps I am completely wrong, who knows?) -other then God 🙂 As for not being able to change, I grant you that one can never change their sexuality, only suppress it, but one can change their behaviour although, why would you want too and no one should be able to force you to change that behaviour in any case. And the thing with changing our behaviour, it rarely long lasting.

Jesus did say “For some are eunchs because they were born that way…” as you point out, but what leads you to believe eunuchs were gay? I have read and heard this argument from pro-gay Christians and they seem to use this scripture in Matt 19:12 as it appears you do, in order to say that gays are born gay. But where eunuchs gay? An eunuch was a person born male who did not reproduce and they may even have effeminate characteristics, many of whom were castrated from what I understand. There is no indication that eunuchs were gay. Where do you get that from?

The word eunuch can mean a castrated man, but also I think it can also mean any man who has cut himself off from having sexual relations with women. For example, Christ spoke of those who “would not marry” for the kingdom of God’s sake, and called them eunuchs. Because these were men who would remain single or celibate so that they could better serve God.

“The God who created us does not then turn around and condemn us for creating us the way he did”. I agree, but who is to say Gay people are born gay?

Hi Brunski

You make some good points about eunuchs. I also did a biblical study on eunuchs a few years ago and couldn’t find any evidence that they were gay. I suspect that there’s a fair chance that at least some of them were but I can’t prove it either way.

At the moment it’s also hard to prove if people were born gay or not. However I would say it’s equally difficult to prove that they were not born gay. I suspect sexuality is more complex than merely being a product of one influence or another, just like many other things in nature. And I also suspect that it’s different combination of factors for different people so one size doesn’t fit all. To my knowledge, scientists haven’t yet isolated a gene that influences sexual orientation but I think it’s only a matter of time before they do. Many people on both sides of the argument focus on this question of being born gay or not as a way of proving that God either sanctioned homosexuality or didn’t. The problem with that is that there are currently too many unknowns and so the question leads nowhere. And meanwhile what we do know is that there are loving gay people who want to be in loving relationships. And so my question is how can love be wrong? And do we deny loving gay relationships while we wait for scientists to prove a genetic link?

In relation to David’s experiences, I think he’s referring to temperature probes that detected a rise in temperature in response to homoerotic stimuli. In other words, there were objective tests that measured the body’s responses and these showed a biological or unconscious link despite attempts to consciously condition someone away from being gay via the use of shock therapy. I shudder to think of such torture. Anyway, those kinds of crude tests (thankfully a thing of the past) are perhaps the closest thing we have to show that someone really is gay. In other words, the fact that the person’s basic responses did not change seems to indicate that their homosexuality is deeper than a set of behaviours. And with orientation, I think there’s an impllcation that there might be a genetic link just like there can be with certain personality traits. (again no proof though) I believe our sexuality is something that’s embedded into our beings rather than something we just consciously choose. And with the pressures from society, who’d choose to be gay anyway?

For me it doesn’t matter if someone was born gay or not for them to be acceptable to God. What comes to mind is a caterpillar which goes through various life stages and at the start appears one way then evolves into a butterfly. Both are valid phases and for some people, maybe they experience something similarly transformational whether gay or straight.

Brunski, it’s good that you have an enquiring mind and I agree with Mother Hen that asking the hard questions help us grow and mature. Sometimes we don’t always find the neat answers we hope for however and perhaps it’s how we deal with those incomplete answers that’s an equally important part of the journey.

You said:

I just hope I get there before I am 80 plus or worse, on my death bed Thank you for your prayers. Its frustrating to come so close to understand and accepting only to find myself back to where I was & unable to totally accept and reconcile my sexuality with my faith.

Your coming close to self acceptance and then moving back into doubting again is completely normal. Anthony Venn-Brown refers to stages of questioning just like that. I can’t find the posts he made but they speak beautifully to what you describe. Does anyone else know where those posts are to put the link here?

Good luck with your quest! We are here for you.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

At the end of the day I think we all have an understanding of truth and what it means to us as individuals. What is true for one person may not be truth to another. And after all that — well may be we just have to trust in the spirit of truth — whatever we understand that to be!

Hi jamesn

Thanks for joining in the discussion and for your insight. That’s so true that we all have a different way of perceiving truth.. and the subjective and individual interpretations are very valid and valuable. I see each viewpoint as different coloured threads that collectively make up a bigger truth – a beautiful tapestry of human experiencing. 🙂

I’m also reminded of the 2 blindfolded people touching different parts of an elephant. They are asked to describe what they are feeling. Each person gives a very different account and believes that theirs is the right answer. There can be a tendency to dismiss the other description which varies so much from their own. And yet both are true.

Mother Hen, thanks for emphasising a similar point to jamesn and for the way you remind us to trust the individual and their inner processing. I agree that individuals generally know what’s right for them especially when given the space that encourages them to thrive. 🙂

Blessings,

Ann Maree