BTW Masturbation is not mentioned in scripture anywhere. I am aware that some ex gay programs say it is a sin, but what the scriptures actually say is that those who claim the scriptures say things that they don’t and “add to” the Word, every plague in the book will be heaped on them. Rev 22:18

Also 1 Cor 4:6 “Do not go beyond what is written.”

What I wrote was a quote (part) from the Strong’s reference mentioned in your link.

I understand that the most common interpretation of gadal in that verse is that David wept more as in NIV. I have also seen it mentioned in gay Christian evangelical books that they believe it does refer to what I mentioned and that many believe David and Jonathan had an intimate gay relationship. I’m personally not prepared to go that far. Interesting though.

Thanks for all the replies … let me begin by saying I personally, don’t believe that David and Jonathan nor Naomi or Ruth were gay, but assuming for 1 second that they were, it doesn’t make it right or “natural” does it?

I think it was you Anne Marie who suggested that I should focus on the many affirming scriptures, I didn’t realise there were any gay affirming scriptures!

No wait, it was Suzee quote: Read those wonderful affirming scriptures which tell us we are set free to live a free life; that we are a child of God.

Paul sets no requirements, no limits, no boundaries – everyone is included.

Let God speak to your heart through these passages of the Bible. Truth will come. Yes, but perhaps, that truth you talk about is nothing more then a lie.

I went out on the weekend with a gay friend who invited along two other gay friends and we ended up going to a gay bar/club after dinner and lets just say, I felt terribly uncomfortable! I didn’t want to be there in the presence of so may “fags” even though, I am a “fag” myself. It was bizarre, there I was (a gay man) having a drink with other gay men, in the presence of a host of gay, lesbian and trans-gender people and I felt so uncomfortable. Asking myself, what I was doing there? Maybe all those years of being told that Gays are sinful, immoral, unnatural, ungodly, perverter and demon possessed … has become so ingrained within me that no matter how much I tell myself that I am “happy” being gay or have truly accepted it, I am far from it!

David you said quote: “No matter what happens, no matter what people say, always remember God loves you..He really does”. yes I know he (God) loves me, but does He love my sexuality? Does He love me, when I choose to have sex with other men? Or is Fred Phelps right, God hates fags!

At the end of the day, I don’t want to be gay, but I am, I want to change, but I cant (but have I really tried?) sure I went through and Ex-gay program, I was “delivered” and “set free” from the demon of homosexuality, but perhaps, I have “opened the door” to Satan, perhaps, I just didn’t try hard enough. Maybe God wont help me to change until I accept that homosexuality is wrong, sinful and an abomination. Maybe I will end up burning in hell :((

Hi Brunski

I feel for you.. It seems that you are needing proof about whether homosexuality is wrong or not. I can certainly remember anguishing with the same questions for a period of time.. I eventually reached a point of having to choose how I lived. There were 2 options as I saw them. I could either stop myself really living while I waited for the elusive evidence, or, I could embrace life with all it’s uncertainties and be as true to myself as possible. Thankfully amidst the questioning, I had a series of experiences that led to my feeling sure of God’s acceptance of my sexuality and there was a total peace that came with that. You might say, as davidt found, that in a way, God spoke to me. Of course, I can’t prove that to you and it doesn’t help in your own search for truth but it was real to me and I trust it completely.

Suzee, you have a beautiful wholeheartedness that accepts people as they are. If only everyone was this accepting and passionate. Just know however that it takes a while to undo all the years of conditioning especially if you have an enquiring mind like Brunski. It took me some years to reconcile my faith and sexuality, or to be sure of my ‘salvation’. As scripture suggests, for many of us it really is a process of working out our salvations with fear and trembling and not in an instant. I think it’s also a very individual and deep process that’s different for each person.

Brunski, I don’t feel comfortable in clubs of any kind and that’s just the way I am. Sometimes there’s a stereotype that suggests that all gay people are part of a clubbing lifestyle but this is just not true. I’ve found there’s a sub group within the LGBTI community that’s into ‘the scene’ but this group certainly doesn’t represent all LGBTI people. In the same way not all heterosexual people go to bars or clubs.

Blessings,

Ann Maree

wow Brunski…..quite a thread you’ve started here. So glad I sent you here for two reasons.

1. I would not have had the time to go into depth about all these questions that are plaguing you unfortunately

2. You have received so many more perspectives than just mine. (good work gang. Proud of you)

I have scanned through the 50 something responses since I was last here and I’d like to offer some observations if I may.

David Jonathan/ Ruth and Naomi

Coming to substantial conclusions about these relationships depends on how much one has read about these and what we have read. Initially I rejected the possibility that David and Jonathan had a gay relationship. I thought it was just gay Christian justification and put it to bed. Later though (as you will see below in my process of resolution) I continued to read both sides of the debate….looking very much into the culture of the time, some very interesting statements that Saul had made to David and his son Jonathan and also the nuances of the original languages. Some of the books I have read were entirely on the topic of the relationship. I discovered some fascinating stuff I knew nothing about previously. To say they were gay is probably stretching it a bit considering the concept wasn’t relevant in biblical times. What I believe we can say is that David and Jonathan quite conceivably had a same sex loving, intimate and quite possibly sexual relationship. Not unlike ones common at that time with a younger man and a warrior. Does this make them gay? We will never know emphatically but at the same time it is not inconceivable.

Eunuchs

Once again from the reading I have done it is quite conceivable that many of these men were same sex oriented. Which makes Jesus statement of the time ground-breaking. ‘Some are born that way” To study the roles of eunuchs domestically and politically it is once again quite conceivable that some were the gay men of the time as gay men have made certain contributions and fulfilled various roles in societies for millennia. Hence one role of the eunuch was to work in the harems and amongst the concubines as they were not a threat sexually. Whether the castrated eunuchs became same sex orientated because of the lack of testosterone is debatable. More medical research would shed some light on that.

So to summarise the above I think that to be emphatic either way is probably a bit presumptuous. After reading many scholars (who specialise in the areas of language, anthropology, history of those times etc) and they can’t even agree what chance do we have.

From my observation you have become stuck in a process. I remember the first time you contacted me after reading my autobiography. Your experience was real and profound. one of the most dramatic that any reader of my book has had. I have often spoken to others about the power of it.

So why are you where you are at today?

I believe it is the years of negative conditioning plus the trauma you have previously experienced that is causing the difficulties. So many negatives are attached to your sexual orientation that are difficult to be released from. They are entrenched in your subconscious. I know this from personal experience and what I speak about in my seminars.

After coming out, internalised homophobia from years of negative conditioning and self-hatred continues to have an impact

Below are some examples.

I wish I could say that I no longer hear these peoples messages but unfortunately I began a journey into the dark recesses of my soul as I could not shift the ideas about homosexuality I heard in church

Lesbian 48 years old.

I am so so confused and I hope that somehow, some way I come to a place where I know that I know that I know that God loves and accepts me for who I am and blesses my relationship with my partner and its really okay with to have children in a gay relationship. thats what I want to hear but I am scared that I am just hearing what I want to hear and not the truth…..what is the truth?

Lesbian Christian: but does God really accept me?

I am a third-generation Pentecostal. I would not trade my heritage for the world, but I am afraid that coming out would mean automatic excommunication. In my church, homosexuality is perceived to be the result of sin–so I have lived conflicted inside for years. I am reading several books now about the so-called clobber passages, and logically I understand that contemporary, loving same-sex relationships are not condemned. But the old tapes inside my head keep replaying! Must I spend the rest of my life unlearning this?

Pentecostal man, 49, PhD student, hiding ‘out’ at a crossroads

During my entire Christian walk (18 years to date) I have constantly struggled with my sexuality. But kept on believing God for complete deliverance or resigned myself to the fact that this was my ‘cross to bear’ or the ‘thorn in my side’. I kept going to church for a while until my best friend of 14 years confessed how she had fallen in love with me. We have been together for 4 years now. We are not going to any church at the moment. But do plan to. I am still in a great battle with the whole thing. Guilt tries to override my new found happiness. I am secretly thinking i am going to hell, but how can I go back to living a lie, and I have never felt so loved as I do now. Awesome! So my faith is on the back shelf at the moment!

My story Linda Finding Her Way

I understand how this plays out personally because for 22 years my same sex orientation was clouded with negatives. Shame, fear, an seemingly uncontrollable sexual addiction. During those 22 years I never had a positive sexual experience. No love, no intimacy, no affection. Whilst having sex with another man I hated every minute of it…couldn’t wait for it to be over (it was always brief)…I’d immediately ask God to forgive me…..and promise that it would not happen again. I couldn’t enjoy it…..it was sin.

So where did that leave me. Totally screwed up in my understanding of my sexual orientation. Heterosexuals experience the same thing if they have had addictions or abuse. later in life they will have problems with relationships and sexual intimacy. If you are gay and been sexually abused….. OMG…..that adds another layer of feeling dirty and shame. These negative influences can take years to be healed of. Some people are not healed of them they just have to manage them.

Regarding the understanding of the scriptures and resolving those. Here is the process I take people through in my seminars WALKING BETWEEN WORLDS and Homosexuality, Christianity and the Church – resolving the conflicts.

Regarding being able to resolve the scriptures……below is the process most gay and lesbian Christians go through in order to resolve the perceived conflict between their faith and their sexuality

1. Many initially just know deep within their hearts that they are okay and God loves them as they are. What the scriptures say at this time might not even be relevant. The personal revelation is powerful enough.

2. There may come a time when we begin studying the relevant passages a bit deeper and the first thing that comes up is we think that we and the authors we are reading are just trying to justify our positions – keep reading

3. The next step is – we fear being deceived by satan – keep reading

4. The next step is – you realise that this is not a black and white issue and the evidence at least means no one can say for certain, absolutely, definitely without a shadow of doubt. – keep reading

5. The next step is – we realise the evidence is overwhelming that the interpretations have been based on reading English translations viewed through a limited cultural lens of preconceived ideas and misconceptions.

6. You realise that it’s not just you who has this new understanding but also a growing number of heterosexual Christians and scholars.

7. No more cognitive dissonance and you can get on with your life living it with purpose and meaning; no longer drained by the subconscious sense that you are condemned and unworthy. The words of Jesus become profoundly true. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. John 8:32

Interestingly when I spoke last year at a Pentecostal Bible College about this last year……the straight lecturer who’d arranged for me to speak told me she was going through the exact same process herself as a straight Christian looking at the gay issue.

Hope this helps.